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Good evening, Alvin Reid sitting in for Charlie Brennan this week and I'm like the seagulls up in the Pacific Northwest.

I fly in, cause a ruckus, crap all over everything and fly back out.

It's good to be back here with everybody on Donnybrook.

And joining me tonight, media veteran Wendy Weise.

One of our founders, Bill McClellan, post-dispatch columnist.

Post-dispatch political columnist, Joe Holleman.

And from the Webster Kirkwood Times, Jaime Mowers.

How you doing, Jaime?

I'm doing great, Alvin.

Thank you for having me on.

Anytime, anytime.

How's Kirkwood doing?

Well, we have been in the news this week.

Apparently, Russ Hoss and Mark Petty, who ran the electrical department, and Mr.

Petty, who was in charge of the electric department, were let go.

But they didn't really resign.

They got fired, but that was not put out there.

And the Post has called for the mayor and other council people to resign, calling them liars.

So, Jamie, where are we at on all this right now?

Okay, so, yes.

Where we're at at this juncture is that Kirkwood Mayor Liz Gibbons actually told the Times earlier this week, which will be hitting the streets right about now and tomorrow morning.

So, read the Webster Kirkwood Times for the full story.

But she told the Times that she has no intention of resigning at this point.

She wants to do the forensic audit.

She wants to see that through.

She wants to be transparent.

She wants to let all of the residents know what the audit reveals.

But she said, even though a lot of people in Kirkwood, and like you said, and the Post-Dispatch had a pretty persuasive editorial as well, a lot of people are calling for her resignation.

But she's, at this juncture, she is committed to seeing it through.

Well, I think she should.

I mean, I like her editorial, and I'm a big fan of Kevin McDermott, who writes the editorials.

But I thought, I don't think this is something you have to resign about.

And, in fact, I think that if the mayor resigned right now, it would raise more questions than answers.

It would make her look like she had something to do with the missing money.

So, I don't think that your mayor, Liz Gibbons, should resign.

No, I mean, and I don't think so either, but I think that's ultimately up to the citizens of Kirkwood.

And they are, like I said, a lot of them are calling for that right now, but we'll see.

We'll see what happens.

Is it divided along ideological lines, political lines?

Are you getting any sense of that?

What people are saying, what we have heard, is it's just about the trust.

It's, you know, it's people want the truth, and then she came out and said, we hid the truth.

So, that is not a good look.

Well, and the two gentlemen who retired, air quotes, but were actually fired, and they left with some lovely parting gifts, I believe.

$300,000 in one case, and then, what, $150,000 in the other.

That's correct.

Okay, and then, okay, that's enough of a red, you know, that's a big red flag right there.

But the councilwoman who said that this is no big deal, it happens in corporations all the time.

I believe that if I were the queen of the universe, people would have, like you have to have LSAT tests to get into law school.

You have to have MCAT tests to get into medical school.

There's got to be some kind of ethical, some kind of test for somebody to actually say that.

And she's not used to being quoted, and I'm going to obviously cut her some slack, but this is not a corporation.

These are taxpayers who are involved here.

Well, and first of all, you had told me early on that you were the queen of the universe.

Well, in the green room.

She's not.

First of all, there's really not a question.

There is no slack that needs to be cut.

I do disagree with you there.

I think whatever people are saying in Kirkwood, they are well within their rights to say it.

If you know what the truth is and you make a statement that is directly opposite of that, that's called lying.

It's not like, well, you know, we couched it.

No, you lied.

And so what you have pretty good evidence telling our reporters is, yes, we made a conscious decision to lie to you.

The mayor of the city said that.

And the one alder woman or councilwoman is kind of saying I don't really consider it a lie.

She's not even giving it up on that one.

I mean, it's a lie.

You and I agree on that.

It is definitely a lie.

I'm just saying she is not used to the harsh glare of the spotlight.

Sort of the heat in the kitchen thing.

Yeah, I know.

You know, you ran for the office and somebody asked you point blank and you lied.

I mean, and at least Mayor Gibbons kind of tried to say that not in so many ways.

Now, Alvin and I have always agreed on this point over the years.

I'm not a big fan of throwing people out of office.

I believe the citizens of a community should throw people out of office.

But if I were in any way interested in being the mayor or a councilperson in Kirkwood, I would be running off copies of the Post-Dispatch Editorial and handing them out to everyone.

And it's not just a little thing.

There was missing money.

And then these people are given more money to go away.

And then we lied about the whole affair.

And there's no good way to spin that.

Well, except I still think that if the mayor were to resign, people would think, well, she has something to do with this missing money.

She's got some of it.

So if I was the mayor, I'd say I'm not going to resign.

She sits in the big chair.

Well, she does.

I mean, ultimately, what is it, the stop set, the mayors or whoever's desk.

My thing, I just don't think that the Post-Dispatch, and I could be wrong, okay, I don't recall them saying Kim Gardner should resign.

I don't recall them saying Steve Stenger should resign.

You know, until it was, they were leaving or getting thrown out of office or whatever.

But, I mean, that seemed a little dramatic to me.

I just thought it was, not over the top because of the situation, but we're jumping to that?

You should resign?

I mean, people have done worse than the mayor of Kirkwood has done.

I see what you're saying.

And at the end of the day, like I'll say it again, I'm not a fan of throwing people out of office unless someone's charged with a crime.

I believe voters get to decide who they want.

But if I were a voter in Kirkwood, I'd take a real long, hard look at people who are now promising to be transparent.

Yes.

Or the same ones who lied about the whole affair.

But no, no, now we've decided to be transparent.

Right, because you've lost that trust.

So that should, is safe.

And somebody among them is saying, you know, so that's, I would just say to the mayor, Richard Nixon said he wasn't going to resign either.

This is a terrible thing, but these things snowball and people have an opportunity or people have a tendency, I should say, to decide how serious it is.

And it might get more serious.

Full disclosure, I know the mayor of Kirkwood.

OK, so I do know that.

And I also know, as Jamie does, we will turn on you like a snake in Kirkwood.

Not her, but anyway, I just, we're, like you said, what's the feeling in Kirkwood?

Put your finger in the air and the wind's blowing.

We can be some pretty nasty people when we want to.

OK, kind of a sad story.

Two years ago, a child was reported missing to the St.

Louis Metropolitan Police Department.

And no real action was taken.

The child was found dead in Illinois with the help of a police officer from Delos, Missouri.

Joe, it's kind of a sad story all the way around and it kind of leaves the St.

Louis Metropolitan Police Department not looking real good as of where we stand right now on a Thursday night.

Yeah, I would struggle to try to find a positive on this when it comes to the city police department.

And, you know, it's one thing to say, and I do understand how it can happen to where here's another what we believe is a domestic dispute and nothing's going to come of this.

And we get a lot of these.

But, you know, it's like when it's like when an editor gives you they got a tip on a story and you know that this isn't anything.

But then the bottom line, you still got to make the calls.

And that's what they didn't do.

They didn't make the calls evidenced by a police officer from Delos, Missouri.

Solve this thing like a sleuth and brought some closure to this woman and found this poor child dead.

So, yeah, I don't see where the city police department again, I guess, in coming out is to simply apologize for what amounts to not doing their job.

To me, it's as blunt as that sounds.

They didn't do their job.

And maybe four times out of five you get away with it.

And it is just a domestic dispute.

And the kid shows up fine.

But that's why you make the calls on everyone.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, they certainly seem to play it cheap.

And like you say, four out of five times, maybe it works.

These missing people and missing children.

But reading this story made it sound like the father of the child was enough of a strange character that the police should have paid a little more attention when the child is not there.

Yes.

He couldn't account for at one point he said, well, the child is in protective services.

At another point he said they were living with a relative or somebody.

I gave them to an Amish family in Mississippi.

Check that out.

Imagine if you are that mother.

It just breaks my heart.

She was screaming to be heard for two years.

Then finally went to, you know, her small town detective.

And thank goodness she did because they're the ones who got it done.

And this is a police force that is, what, 800 officers down now?

I mean, this is what happens.

Yes.

No, this is not what happens when you're short on police.

I'm sorry, Wendy.

A missing child and mom is saying, you know, there's a guy.

There's a dad.

That takes one or two police officers.

Right.

I agree with you.

I absolutely agree with you.

But I'm just saying, as Joe and Bill have pointed out, so often the mother will or the father will vilify the other.

That's the nature of domestic dispute.

No, I got that.

It took one guy to solve the case.

I'm just saying a deficit doesn't help.

And I can say, and, you know, the police department still hadn't made a statement as of, you know, this evening.

And I guess I read that they were going to.

So I'm interested to see what they have to say for themselves.

Because it really is a sad story.

But we got a piece of happiness behind me.

We have new art from Sean Cornell.

And you can see his work along with other artists at heartlandartclub.org.

An interesting story.

He painted that just for us on Donnybrook.

Just a beautiful landscape.

Very, very Midwest.

Speaking of the Midwest, tornadoes hit us just like the one on May 16th of last year.

And wouldn't you know it, as soon as money is available, people start trying to get it that aren't deserved it.

So, Bill, I say throw them in jail.

Lock them up.

Lock them up.

You know, let's look at it case by case.

No, no, no.

Industrial-size scamming.

These professionals who claim that they're going to be doing a lot for a lot of people and take all this money and keep it for themselves.

Those people should be locked up.

Some of these people on this tornado thing are going to turn out to be characters from an Elmer Leonard novel.

I mean, some lady who's had no luck all her life and then finally a little bit of luck, the tornado misses her by two blocks.

But now she's thinking about it and thinking, well, I ought to be able to get a little bit of that money.

And if she puts in for that money, I think that we should say, I'm sorry, you're not getting it.

But I don't think that she should be criminally charged.

I think there's going to be a lot of kind of offbeat characters here that it would be an injustice to me to lock a lot of these people up.

I'm heartened the fact that the city caught it before they paid them, considering what happened with LCRA and LRA, where they were sending money to Maplewood or whatever it was before.

So at least they stopped it.

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know.

Do you have to get money back?

Because it seems these people didn't.

They attempted, it seems, to defraud.

Hopefully the names of those people who do that are up on some big board written down as if you see an application from the following people, flag it.

I mean, good for the city, and we love to beat up the city, and I live in the city, and I love to beat them up, too, because I'm paying for it.

But I'm glad they caught them.

So I guess that was my first reaction was, hey, you guys actually didn't pay that stuff out.

Good job.

I was going to say, you and Jacob Kern said last week that you didn't trust the city in fixing these places, and it was funny how, but at least they caught it.

Good point.

But there still should be some kind of deterrent.

There should be something.

I don't know if, you know, double secret probation or parole.

I don't know what it is.

But they should, what did you say?

Throw the pamphlet at them.

Not throw the book at them, but Bill said throw the pamphlet at them.

Throw something at them so that at least they won't try it again.

You can't talk about the hard times that the city has fallen on and then say, oh, well, you know, they're nice people, you know, and we'll just let it go.

Lock them up, Wendy.

No, that's what Alvin, Alvin the dictator said, lock them up.

I said probation.

You cannot take advantage of people's, I don't want to say grief, but the fact that this was a very, very hardship kind of thing, and people have been waiting on this money for, you know, a year plus now, and somebody lived in South County that made a claim.

Now, what, a tree limb flew 27 miles and hit their house?

It can happen, I guess.

Look at Dorothy, the Wizard of Oz.

That stuff flies.

David, did you have anything to add to that one?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

No, just go ahead.

Okay.

Well, you know, I was watching the show last week, and it was excellent.

And, you know, I was going to say, like, I can't miss too many more shows, and it's going to be that good.

But you all spoke about Mr.

Hoffman and his purchase of Camo X and several other radio stations in the St.

Louis area.

It was a really good discussion about all that.

I'm sorry that I missed it.

And then a very glowing story appeared on the cover of the St.

Louis Post-Dispatch, talking about Mr.

Hoffman and all his greatness.

Kind of ruffled some feathers around here.

Wendy, what did you think about it?

There's a lot of, in Sarah's absence, I must use the phrase, pearl clutching going on in the journalism community.

And I understand all of that.

I just don't think that this rises to the level that it has risen to.

He has invested $50 million in a paper that circulation has precipitously fallen over the course of the last 10, 15 years.

I work with a few people from the Post, and they talk about it.

But so I think there's got to be some kind of a grace period.

You know, Mr.

Hyland used to do editorials.

Mark Dorsey does editorials.

I would view this as an introductory, this is who I am, this is what this is about.

I don't think you can accuse him of being William Randolph Hearst or Joe Pulitzer in yellow journalism.

I just don't think we're there yet.

Now, if it rises to that, if it does rise to that level of, you know, involvement, then a lot of fine journalists are probably going to look for jobs elsewhere.

But this guy is making a major investment.

He's saying I'm trying to save this paper after 130 papers closed last year alone.

So I'm just saying cut him a little bit of slack.

Well, Wendy, I don't read social media, so I don't know how much pearl clutching journalists are doing about this.

But I think that most journalists are a little uneasy with the story coming in from headquarters that can't be edited, but are still very hopeful about Mr.

Hoffman.

I mean, he's hired a couple, he's hired some people.

He's talking about hiring more.

And I think that most journalists are a little uneasy but hopeful.

Yes.

I think following up with my colleague at the Post-Dispatch, I think concerned is the appropriate word.

And a group of the unions at Lee, of which the Post-Dispatch is one of them, the Post-Dispatch is the only member of the local United Media Guild.

The only Lee paper is us.

But the Buffalo paper, Tucson, Omaha are also union papers.

And we issued a statement that said we are concerned about this requirement to run this story.

And I think that's about as good a description as there is and that at one time they're going to mention it.

And it noted that it was not the type of story that we, the union reporters, would have chose to have written about it.

And I will say for the Post-Dispatch people who have covered Mr.

Hoffman's previous ventures, we have looked at both sides of it.

Good moves and bad moves that his businesses have gone through.

It was, and I think we kid about it, but let me be very clear, there's no one asking me whether or not to run stories, okay?

Those are decisions made by management.

The union had its concerns.

I believe we stated them.

And we go from there.

Jamie, you run a newspaper?

Yes.

Don't put yourself on the cover.

No.

I thought that the, I understand all of the points.

I thought that the huge package, I mean, three big stories, cover.

4,000 words, was that it?

That's a little much.

Yeah, that's a lot.

I get what you're saying with the grace period and everything.

And yes, I mean, that's awesome.

He has invested so much.

But I don't think, I think it was a bit overkill.

I think that's not a great look.

I think he could have just as easily written a column, said, you know, here's who I am, here's my priorities, gone about it that way.

And it might have, you know, not come off as so.

Does the post-dispatch, and I'm asking all of you, does the post-dispatch have a reputation for being left of center?

I think people say that.

I've never believed that, quite frankly.

Okay, okay.

He might just be rebranding.

He might just be saying, because it's the newspaper business, he might just be saying, hey, take another look at us.

You might be seeing different things coming up in the way we cover stories.

I don't know.

Here's my concern, all right.

Another Kirkwood reference here.

I have a friend named Kenny Kirkwood, okay, and we could both see like a late model car over on the side of the road or whatever, all right, and we could both buy it because it was a good deal, all right.

But Kenny fixes cars and he turns them into things that are very valuable.

I can't do that.

Just because it's a good deal and I got $50 million and I bought it, that doesn't mean that I know what I'm doing.

And this smacks of a person that really doesn't understand the ramifications of what he did.

I think you could hold his feet to the coals on this one in that you might have to explain to him that this doesn't make you look good.

And you have to understand that.

So I would have concerns.

Do you think he's that naive?

Yes, I do.

Yes, I do.

Because I think he wouldn't have done it if he had known.

I think he would have done it.

Well, then that's being self-serving.

That's being selfish.

If you said, oh, I don't care what the, I don't care.

Selfish or protecting his investment.

I'm just, I'm the devil's advocate here.

I'm just saying that's not protection of investment.

That's lessening your investment in my estimation.

Well, I can see where he's trying to signal this is a new day.

Things have been sliding down, circulation, not just at the Post, but everywhere.

Right.

Is sliding down.

Exactly.

And Mr.

Hoffman quoted him, was quoted as saying, I run toward what other people run away from.

And I thought, okay.

I just, yeah, I thought he was resetting the table.

Yeah.

That's all.

All right.

Okay.

I guess I love journalism more than you do.

Let me ask you this.

Do you work for Mr.

Hoffman?

And I guess I ain't either.

Not now.

All right.

Joe.

All right.

In the city, the mayor has come out with a strategic plan where she is going to do a lot of stuff.

I mean, it was the Magna Carta of city planning.

I don't mean to make fun of it, but it was lengthy and in case you pull it off.

No.

No.

No one could.

The thing is, somebody sent me a copy and it had 25 points.

And somebody, as reporters tend to do, were kind of tongue in cheek, said, this is a really great plan.

25 points.

And I said, imagine how good it would be if it was 50 points.

It would be twice as good.

And then the conversation evolved from there.

I get it.

What happens is everybody gets an idea.

They throw it on a piece of paper.

No one wants to say, you know, they handled the commandments in 10, so maybe we should draw a line.

You know?

This was 25 points.

It sounded to me like everybody got to say something.

And you're just going to fail if you bat half.

You're going to fail at 12 or 13 things.

Come up with five things you want to do.

I thought this was overkill as far as overplanned and destined to fail on those points, unless you're grading on a pass-fail.

Anybody?

Could be some method to madness now.

You know, like maybe she wanted to put out there that amongst all the bickering and the arguing with the police department and how to spend the money, I guess you could say that, all right, I'm still actually working on these, I don't want to call them campaigns.

She's not taking her foot off the gas.

I think even though this has been a very difficult couple of quarters for the mayor, I think, you know, in a PR sense, in a political sense, I think she's just saying, I am completely energized, I've got my foot on the gas, we're going to move forward.

It did read like a dear Santa letter.

I mean, if you've got 72 hours in one day and a fully staffed and vetted and seasoned, you know, administration at city hall, maybe in 10 years.

But this was kind of it.

And so it's like you're going down the river and the currents got you and you're bobbing down and trying to get up and then you come up, you promise what you're going to be doing.

I mean, I'm going to fix it.

Just survive.

Right.

Pick a couple things, do them well and move on.

Right.

And don't give them something to bring up like this in a campaign.

Well, you said.

Right.

You know, you had a 25 point wish list and you just knocked out X number.

So, yeah.

Yes.

Better slogan than mine.

Mine was St.

Louis, nothing happened to me.

I like yours better, St.

Louis, just survive.

After you catch your breath, if you make it to the shore, catch your breath and then come up with a plan.

Until you get to the shore.

You should start a bumper sticker business.

Throw the pamphlet and just survive.

That's perfect.

We need T-shirts.

Just survive.

All right.

Let's go to the mailbag.

For one person to control such a large swath of media programming in any local market, including the post dispatch already owned by Hoffman, prevents exposure to diverse viewpoints, whether it's legal or not, from the FCC perspective.

It's a bad policy and harmful to the entire local media landscape.

That from Eric Ressner of St.

Louis.

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