>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> NOBODY WAS TEXTING WAR PLANS.

>>> PLANTS FOR YOUR ABOUT IN THE OPEN IN AN EXTRAORDINARY INTELLIGENCE BREACH.

I GET REACTION FROM LATVIA' IS FOREIGN MINISTER.

AND THEN -- >> THEY ARE FINDING LEVELS OF FRAUD, WASTE, AND ABUSE LIKE I THINK NOBODY EVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE.

>> ELON MUSK'S DOGE CHARGES THROUGH WASHINGTON.

WHAT IS BREAKING IN ITS WAKE.

A SENIOR POLITICS WIRED McKENNA KELLY TELLS ME WHY THIS COULD BE A DIGITAL COUP.

PLUS -- >> I DO NOT HAVE THE WORDS TO DESCRIBE THE DEPTH OF THE SUFFRAGE IN KYIV.

>> WE HEAR TESTIMONY FROM >>> EVERY DAY I WAKE UP AND THERE IS A NEW STORY THAT REMINDS ME OF SOMETHING FROM THAT ERA FROM MY BOOK.

>> Reporter: CLAY ROBIN TELLS HOW THE HISTORICAL PERIOD SHAPED MODERN AMERICA.

>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND NIKKI STRAUSS, THE FILM AND FOUNDATION, THE PETER PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY'S FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, WHO AND PATRICIA U.N., COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KAT AND JEFF ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM IN NEW YORK CITY, IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

A MARK FOR A SMALL BUT DOUBLE MEDIC BREAKTHROUGH, THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS UKRAINE AND RUSSIA HAVE AGREED TO STOP USING MILITARY FORCE IN THE BLACK SEA.

BUT RUSSIA SAYS THAT WILL ONLY GO INTO EFFECT ONCE SANCTIONS ARE LIFTED ON ITS FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

ALL OF THIS COMES ON THE HEELS OF A STAGGERING INTELLIGENCE BREACH THAT IS SENDING SHOCKWAVES THROUGH WASHINGTON.

AMERICAN OFFICIALS APPEARED TO GAIN OUT STRIKES AND WHO TO TARGET IN YEMEN ON THE MESSAGING ACT --AFTER, THE SIGNAL.

WITH THE EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC, JEFFREY GOLDBERG.

MICHAEL WALZ HAS, QUOTE, LEARNED A LESSON, AND HE IS A GOOD MAN.

WITH THIS EXTRAORDINARY SECURITY FAILURE, IT HAS ALSO EXPOSED AMERICA'S NEWFOUND HOSTILITY TOWARDS ITS OWN ALLIES.

PATHETIC, FREELOADING.

THAT IS HOW U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH DESCRIBES EUROPE.

FOR THOSE ALLIES, THE CLOSED- DOOR ATTITUDES ON DISPLAY ARE WORRYING.

ESPECIALLY AT THIS CRITICAL MOMENT, AS UKRAINE'S FUTURE HANGS IN THE BALANCE.

AND FOR OTHER COUNTRIES ON THE FRONT LINE WITH RUSSIA.

WITH THE FEAR OF AN EMBOLDENED PUTIN AND AN ABSENT U.S. IS ALL TOO REAL.

BAIBA BRAZE IS THE LATVIA FOREIGN MINISTER JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. MADAME FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

I KNOW YOU MET WITH SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT MEETING IN JUST A MOMENT.

BUT IF YOU COULD RESPOND WITH WHAT YOUR REACTION IS TO WHAT APPEARS TO BE A VERY LIMITED AND NOT MUCH DETAIL-ORIENTED POTENTIAL CEASE-FIRE, SEA.

>> LISTEN, AS YOU RIGHTLY POINT OUT, FIRST, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

AS YOU RIGHTLY POINTED OUT, THERE IS TOO LITTLE INFORMATION CURRENTLY TO REALLY KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN AGREED OR NOT, AND WHAT ARE THE PARAMETERS OF A POSSIBLE DEAL.

SO IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO COMMENT ON SOME THINGS WE DO NOT KNOW.

>> THE FACT THOUGH THAT IT WOULD INVOLVE THE U.S.

LIFTING SOME SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA THIS EARLY ON INTO THESE NEGOTIATIONS TELLS YOU WHAT THOUGH?

>> AGAIN, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IS OR WHAT IS NOT AGREED OR DECIDED.

AND QUITE CLEARLY, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, SANCTIONS GIVE A LEVERAGE IN NEGOTIATIONS TO THE U.S. SIDE, TO THE UKRAINIAN SIDE, TO THE EUROPEANS.

SO THERE IS SOMETHING SAID.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER BOTH IN TERMS OF NEGOTIATION TECH TICS, BUT ALSO ACTUALLY ON THE GREATER RUSSIAN MILITARY CAPABILITY.

BECAUSE THAT IS ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH.

ALSO IN PREVENTING A POSSIBLE RESTART OF THE WAR.

CURRENTLY, WE DO NOT SEE RUSSIA, WE DO NOT SEE ANY INDICATION IN RUSSIA THAT THEY REALLY ARE GOING FOR PEACE.

BUT SERIOUSLY, ALL THE INSTRUMENT OF POWER, WITH THOSE RELIGIOUS, MILITARY, POLITICAL.

SO, WE WELCOME VERY MUCH THE EFFORT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE ADMINISTRATION, WE COVERED THAT IN OUR MEETING BETWEEN THE TWO FOREIGN MINISTER'S AND SECRETARY RUBIO.

THAT WE FULLY SUPPORT THOSE PEACE EFFORTS.

OF COURSE, WE ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PROCESS, AND WE NEED TO MAINTAIN THAT HOME AND THAT PERSPECTIVE THAT, OKAY, THIS IS THE START OF THE PROCESS.

BUT IT IS NOT THE END YET.

AND TO SUSTAIN ACHIEVABLE PEACE, WE HAVE TO HAVE UKRAINE THAT AGREES ON ITS OWN TO VARIOUS ELEMENTS OF A POSSIBLE PEACE DEAL.

BUT WE ALSO NEED CONSTANTLY TO PRESSURE RUSSIA TO RIGHTFULLY BE TRUTHFUL ABOUT THE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS.

SO, I THINK THOSE ELEMENTS HAVE TO BE THERE.

>> Reporter: YOU WERE ALONG WITH OTHER BALTIC NATO MEMBERS THAT KNOW FIRSTHAND EXACTLY WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE INVADED AND FORCED TO BE PART OF A COUNTRY THAT YOU ARE NOT PART OF.

OBVIOUSLY, HAVING BEEN PART OF THE SOVIET UNION FOR SO MANY YEARS, AND NOW A MEMBER OF NATO, AND THERE ON THE FRONT LINES, LITERALLY, PHYSICALLY, YOUR PROXIMITY TO RUSSIA, IT IS, INDEED, SO CLOSE.

AND YOU SEE THE EXPENDITURE, IN TERMS OF YOUR GDP AND THE GDP OF THE OTHER BALTIC NATIONS ARE AMONG THE HIGHEST OF NATO I BELIEVE YOU ARE AT 3.5%.

AND YOU ARE FORECASTED TO SPEND UP TO 5% OF GDP ON DEFENSE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

WHAT WERE THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU HAD THAT YOU CAN SHARE WITH US WITH SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO ABOUT YOUR CONCERNS AS TO RUSSIA'S LONGER-TERM ASPIRATIONS?

AND THIS IS AN ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS LONG BEEN CRITICAL ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF INVESTMENTS THAT EUROPEAN ALLIES HAVE BEEN PUTTING INTO THEIR OWN DEFENSE.

THAT CANNOT BE SAID ABOUT A EURO-NATION AND OTHER BALTIC COUNTRIES.

GIVE US, IF YOU CAN, SHARE ANY INFORMATION YOU CAN ABOUT THE MEETING WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE TODAY.

>> LISTEN, FIRST OF ALL, THE BALTIC STATES ARE 170-YEAR-OLD DEMOCRACIES.

YES, OUT OF THOSE 170 YEARS, FOR 50 YEARS, WE WERE LEGALLY, ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED BY THE SOVIET UNION.

AND IT WAS THE UNITED STATES, THE UNITED KINGDOM, AND THE WESTERN STATES THAT NEVER RECOGNIZED THAT THE SOVIET SO WE CONTINUED TO EXIST.

AND EUROPE CONTINUED WORKING, ALSO, OUR EMBASSIES CONTINUED WORKING HERE IN WASHINGTON, LONDON, AND OTHER PLACES.

SO, IT WAS THE NONRECOGNITION OF OCCUPATION POLICY OR THE DOCUMENTS THAT ACTUALLY DID PROVIDE ALSO THE LEGAL BASIS FOR REGAINING INDEPENDENCE IN 1990.

SO, TODAY, THE MEETING WITH SECRETARY RUBIO WAS QUITE EXCELLENT, THERE IS NO OTHER WORD FOR THAT.

AS HE SAID, AS WE AGREED, WE DO NOT HAVE ANY NATURAL ISSUES, WE DO NOT HAVE ANY TYPE OF PROBLEMS IN OUR RELATIONSHIP THAT NEEDS SOLVING.

SO, ALL THE COUNTRIES ON THE BORDER WITH RUSSIA STARTING FROM NORWAY TO FINLAND, THE DOWN TO THE BALTIC STATES, DOWN TO POLAND, AND SO FORTH, DOWN TO GERMANY, HAVE DECIDED TO RAISE DEFENSE BUDGETS.

BECAUSE WE HAD THE URGE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST A MINISTRATION, BUT ACTUALLY BECAUSE WE HAVE CLEARLY SEEN THE THREAT.

RUSSIA IS A THREAT TO THE WHOLE SECURITY.

IT HAS THE CAPABILITIES AND INTENT, BUT ALSO, IT DECIDED TO ATTACK A COUNTRY IN EUROPE.

SO, WE TAKE OUR DEFENSE AND SECURITY SERIOUSLY.

AND WE DID THANK RESIDENT TRUMP AND SECRETARY RUBIO VERY MUCH FOR THEIR SUPPORT TO THE BALTIC STATES FOR THEIR CLEAR COMMITMENT TO NATO, FOR THEIR CLEAR COMMITMENT ALSO TO URGE THOSE WHO ARE NOT INVESTING IN DEFENSE AS MUCH AS WOULD BE NEEDED.

AND THERE ARE ELEMENTS THAT WE JOINTLY WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE SURE WE ARE CORRECT IN THAT.

BUT THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, I WOULD NOT SAY THAT IT IS A EUROPEAN TYPE OF PROBLEM, BECAUSE EUROPEAN ALLIES ARE ALSO QUITE DIFFERENT AMONG THEMSELVES.

AND NATO IS MORE THAN JUST EUROPEAN ALLIES.

WE ALSO HAVE CANADA AND OTHER ALLIES.

SO IT IS A TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE.

AND THAT BOND IS VERY, VERY STRONG.

SO WE THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SECRETARY RUBIO FOR THAT.

>> YOU COME AT A VERY TENSE TIME, AS I'M SURE YOU HAVE HEARD THE NEWS OF THIS REPORTING AND SECURITY BREACH OF TOP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS AND CABINET MEMBERS DISCUSSING WAR PLANS AND STRIKES AGAINST YEMEN OVER AN ENCRYPTED APP.

AND IN THESE DISCUSSIONS, AS HAS BEEN REPORTED BY A JOURNALIST, A REPUTABLE JOURNALIST HERE IN THE UNITED STATES WHO INADVERTENTLY HAD BEEN ADMITTED INTO THIS CHAT GROUP, THE VICE PRESIDENT HIMSELF SAID THINGS ALONG THE LINES OF, I HATE BAILING EUROPE OUT AGAIN.

THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE SAYS THAT HE HATES FREELOADING EUROPE.

IT IS PATHETIC.

SO, I KNOW YOU SAID YOU HAD AN EXCELLENT CONVERSATION WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE, WE SHOULD KNOW THAT HE TOO WAS ON THIS CHAT GROUP.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THIS TYPE OF CHARACTERIZATION FROM A CLOSE ALLY?

>> LISTEN, I CANNOT COMMENT ON SIGNAL CHAT GROUPS AND CONVERSATIONS HAPPENING THERE.

WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES.

SOMETIMES THAT HAPPENS.

IT IS JUST A REALITY.

IT IS NOT CONNECTED TO SIGNAL, IT CAN HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE.

BUT I THINK EVERYBODY NEEDS TO SORT OF MAKE THEIR CONCLUSIONS, AND THAT IS A LESSON LEARNED TO EVERYONE THAT THESE THINGS CAN HAPPEN.

THE OTHER PART, AGAIN, ON THE EUROPEAN SPENDING OR SPENDING OF SOME EUROPEAN ALLIES WHO ARE BELOW WHAT SHOULD BE SPENT, THERE ARE PRETTY FRANK CONVERSATIONS ONGOING THAT DO NOT NEED TO BE SO PUBLIC ALWAYS.

AGAIN, WE HAVE JOINED NATO'S DEFENSE PLANS, THOSE DEFENSE PLANS PROVIDE FOR CERTAIN CAPABILITIES THAT WE ALL NEED, BEFORE THE STRUCTURE OF NATO FORCES FOR OTHER COMMITMENTS.

SO, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALL HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN ACROSS THE ALLIANCE'S REACH.

THAT IS WHERE EVERYONE NEEDS TO CONTRIBUTE.

SO, PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

YOU SAW THAT ALSO AT THE EUROPEAN LEVEL, WHICH IS NOT A POLITICAL MILITARY ALLIANCE, BUT IT IS A DIFFERENT TYPE OF CONVERSATION.

BUT THERE HAVE BEEN DECISIONS MADE THAT WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THAT.

SO, AGAIN, BETWEEN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AT LARGE AND THE U.S., I THINK OUR RELATIONSHIP, BOTH IN TRADES AND INVESTMENTS, IN TRADE OF SERVICES, IT IS THE STRONGEST WE HAVE SEEN.

WE ARE EACH OTHER'S LARGEST INVESTOR BY FAR.

BY FAR.

FOR 100 YEARS OR MORE.

WE HAVE THE BIGGEST TRADE RELATIONSHIP AMONG OLD TRADE THE TRADE OF SERVICES IS THE HIGHEST IT HAS BEEN.

SO THAT RELATIONSHIP, OBVIOUSLY, HAS ITS UPS AND DOWNS.

THAT IS NORMAL AMONG THE PARTNERS.

IT IS NOT LIKE WE DO NOT HAVE THOSE TYPES OF ISSUES WITHIN EUROPE.

>> WELL, FOREIGN MINISTER, WE WOULD LIKE TO -- >> IN THE LIMITED TIME THAT WE DO HAVE, I'M ONLY RAISING THIS BECAUSE THESE ARE AMONG THE TOP ADVISERS AND TRUSTED MEMBERS SURROUNDING THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, THIS IS SEPARATE FROM THE WHATSAPP CHAT GROUP IN A PUBLIC INTERVIEW.

STEVE WYCOFF, ONE OF HIS TOP ADVISERS WHO HAS MET WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN TWICE JUST THAT OVER THE WEEKEND WHEN ASKED, IF YOU THINK QUESTIONS WANT TO MARCH ACROSS EUROPE, HE SAID, 100% NOT.

DO YOU SHARE THAT CERTAINTY?

THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN DOES NOT WANT TO CONTINUE MARCHING ACROSS EUROPE?

>> WAS AND, AS A RULE, WE DO NOT COMMENT ON SOME COMMENTS BY OTHER OFFICIALS.

BECAUSE, AGAIN, A RIGHT TO THEIR OPINIONS.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I WOULD NEVER DO.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, OF COURSE, TAKING THAT ASIDE ABOUT RUSSIA, I ALREADY SHARED OUR SKEPTICISM ABOUT RUSH'S INTENTIONS, THEY KEEP REMINDING THAT THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE, OF THEIR AGGRESSION IN UKRAINE NEEDS TO BE ELIMINATED, LISTEN, THOSE ROOT CAUSES ARE RUSH'S IMPERIAL ATTITUDES AND COLONIAL POLICIES.

IF YOU LOOK THE WAY THEY CONTACT THEIR POLICIES IN AFRICA THROUGH THE SO-CALLED AFRICA CORES ACCESS OF RESOURCES, THEY ARE TRYING TO SORT OF TAKE IT OUT AND TAKE TO RUSSIA THE GOLD FROM SUDAN, AND OTHER NATURAL RESOURCES FROM ELSEWHERE.

OR THE OBJECT LIVES IN UKRAINE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY TO MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE ITS OWN INDEPENDENT.

I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO BE AWARE THAT THIS IS WHAT RUSSIA WANTS AND WE SHOULD NOT LET THEM GET IT.

>> IN YOUR OPINION, NOT A TERRITORIAL DISPUTE THEN, AS IT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED.

MADAM FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AGAIN, WE ARE ALL FOR PEACE, FOR LASTING PEACE.

>> OUT OF THE EXTRAORDINARY SIGHT OF MILITARY OPERATIONS BEING PLANNED OUT ON SIGNAL, IT IS JUST THE LATEST EXAMPLE OF THIS GOVERNMENT'S UNPRECEDENTED APPROACH TO TECH AND COMMUNICATION.

IT IS ALSO THE LATEST IN A SERIES OF WONDERS.

MANY OF THEM AT THE HAND OF ELON MUSK'S DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY.

IT SAID ABOUT DISMANTLING DIFFERENT TEAMS AND PROGRAMS LEFT, RIGHT, AND CENTER, AND CAUSING A LOT OF CHAOS IN EQUAL MEASURE.

EBOLA PREVENTION WAS CANCELED AND RESTORED, NUCLEAR SECURITY STAFF WERE FIRED AND THEN REHIRED.

SO WHO IS BEHIND THIS?

AND WHAT IS THAT TAKE HERE?

KELLY HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THIS REPORTER AT THE WIRED.

THANK YOU SO MUCH BUT BEFORE WE GET TO THE DOGE STORY, THANK YOU.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE STUNNING DEVELOPED OF THE SECURITY RISK THAT MAY HAVE BEEN EXPOSED BY JEFFREY GOLDBERG AT THE ATLANTIC THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT WITH THE FOREIGN MINISTER ABOUT WAR PLANNING BEING MAPPED OUT OVER SIGNAL.

TALK ABOUT YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THIS STORY.

AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR.

>> SURE, IT WAS DEFINITELY A SURPRISING DEVELOPMENT TO HEAR.

BUT LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, OR AT LEAST THE SO- CALLED DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY THESE PAST TWO MONTHS, A LITTLE OVER TWO MONTHS, THIS ADMINISTRATION, A LOT OF THINGS HAVE HAPPENED THAT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN HAPPEN BEFORE.

AND SO, OF COURSE, IT WASN'T SURPRISING.

BUT IN MANY WAYS, IT WAS UNSURPRISING.

LOOKING AT THE TRAJECTORY OF HOW DOGE HAS OPERATED OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

>> AND HOW QUICKLY THEY HAVE OPERATED.

HE HAS PLANTED TEAMS AND WAS ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICE IN THE GOVERNMENT IN JUST TWO MONTHS TIME.

YOU DESCRIBE THIS AS A MUST'S DIGITAL COUP.!

WHAT THAT MEANS.

>> I WAS ACTUALLY A SOURCE OF MINE WHO WAS WORKING AT USAID AT THE TIME.

HE CALLED THE INCURSION OF ELON MUSK'S DOGE TEAM ON U.S. AID A DIGITAL COUP.

I THINK THAT IS AN APT DESCRIPTION OF IT.

SPEAKING OF FOLKS AT USA AND ALL THE AGENCIES WE HAVE BEEN SPEAKING TO, WHEN DOGE FOLKS HAVE ENTERED THIS AGENCY, IT HAS BEEN SUDDEN AND ALL- ENCOMPASSING.

WITH FOLKS WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, ANYWHERE FROM A 19-YEAR-OLD KID WHO LIKES TO GO BY BIG BALLS ONLINE, TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING IN SILICON VALLEY FOR DECADES.

THEY ARE GAINING WHAT TOO MANY BELIEVE UNPRECEDENTED ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS ACROSS AGENCIES.

>> SO SOME OF THESE EMPLOYEES ARE EAGER TO DO WHAT ELON MUSK SAYS IS A NECESSITY HERE, AND WHAT HE SET HIS SITE OUT FOR EVEN ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, WE SHOULD NOTE.

BACK AND COMPLAINED TO YOU ABOUT RESIGNING FROM THEIR POSITION.

ONE EMPLOYEE TOLD YOU THAT SHE RESIGNED BECAUSE SHE DID NOT WANT TO, QUOTE, ORGANIC COMPLETE DISMANTLEMENT OF GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS.

WHAT IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL HERE, IN YOUR VIEW, FROM ELON MUSK?

AND WHY IS THERE SO MUCH DISDAIN FOR THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE?

>> Reporter: YES.

WHEN YOU TALK TO FOLKS WHO ARE ACTUALLY EMPLOYED AT AGENCIES, LIKE WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY CALLED THE UNITED STATES DIGITAL SERVICE, WHICH HAS NOW BEEN REBRANDED TO THE U.S. DOGE SERVICE, ARE FOLKS WHO WORST -- USED TO WORKERS IN THE CALLED TRANSLATION SERVICES.

THESE ARE FOLKS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN BROUGHT IN FROM INDUSTRY.

FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN SPENDING, YOU KNOW, THEIR CAREERS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WANTING TO DO A TOUR IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR, AND GOVERNMENT, TO USE THE SKILLS THEY HAVE LEARNED TO MAKE GOVERNMENT RUN MORE EFFICIENTLY.

THAT IS ACTUALLY WHAT A LOT OF THESE, YOU KNOW, SMALL LITTLE GROUPS AND ORGANIZATIONS, LIKE USPS WAS CREATED TO DO.

SO THERE HAVE BEEN BODIES OF FOLKS DOING THIS FOR A WHILE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT FOLKS WITHIN THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE BEING DISDAINFUL IN WHAT IT IS THAT ELON MUSK IS DOING, WELL, THEY SEE SOMEONE COMING IN, TELLING THEM TO COMPLETELY RIP UP WITH A HAVE BEEN DOING WITH THEIR JOBS WHEN THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN THEIR GOAL FOR MORE THAN A DECADE AT THIS POINT.

>> AND ACCESS TO SO MUCH INFORMATION, I MEAN, YOU REPORT THAT MUSK AND THOSE THAT WORKED FOR HIM THERE HAVE GAINED ACCESS TO, QUOTE, UNTOLD TERABYTES OF DATA.

WHAT ARE THE RISKS OF HAVING SO MUCH DATA LIKE THIS FLOATING AROUND?

AGAIN, YOU SAY SOME OF THESE EMPLOYEES ARE IN THEIR 20s, THEY DO NOT KNOW IF THEY HAVE SECURITY CLEARANCES.

TELL US WHAT IS AT STAKE.

>> YEAH.

THERE IS A LOT AT STAKE HERE.

SPECIFICALLY WHEN IT COMES TO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT FOLKS WHO, I THINK OF THOMAS SHED AT U.S. GSA, A GOOD EXAMPLE.

A FORMER TESLA ENGINEER WHO NOW IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE TECHNOLOGY TRANSLATION SERVICES.

HE IS SOMEONE WHO HAS UNPRECEDENTED ACCESS TO SYSTEMS THAT OPERATE GOVERNMENT WEBSITES.

EVEN JUST AT GSA BUT ALSO ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT.

IF HIS LAPTOP, YOU KNOW, FOR INSTANCE, WAS, SOMEBODY, WE HAD SOMEBODY, HMMM SOME HOSTILE ACTOR WHO EITHER WAS ABLE TO JUST GRAB HIS LAPTOP, OR ABLE TO HACK INTO THE SYSTEM, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, THEY HAVE THIS UNPRECEDENTED ACCESS TO SO MANY GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS.

SO THAT IS ONE OF THE SECURITY RISKS GOING ON.

OF COURSE, THERE ARE THESE KIDS, MANY OF THEM, YOU KNOW, HAVE JUST GOTTEN OUT OF SCHOOL, OR DO NOT HAVE A LOT OF WORK HISTORY PERIOD, EITHER PRIVATE SECTOR OR PUBLIC SECTOR.

AND THESE FOLKS NOW, WHO HAVE NEVER DEALT WITH THIS DATA BEFORE, NOW HAVE A LOT OF THIS DATA ACCESSIBLE ON THE SYSTEMS THAT THEY ARE CARRYING TO ALL THESE AGENCIES EVERY DAY.

ONE SOURCE AT USAID DESCRIBED TO ME THAT SOME OF THESE TEENAGERS WERE SHOWING UP WITH BACKPACKS FULL OF SIX OR SEVEN LAPTOPS.

AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE BACKPACKS ARE OPEN, YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THESE LAPTOPS IN THERE, IT SEEMED LIKE A SECURITY THREAT IN AND OF ITSELF.

>> AND THE QUESTION OF LEGALITY OBVIOUSLY HAS BEEN RAISED.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE LAW CASES NOW THE FOUR JUDGES.

AND JUSTICES HAVE ACTUALLY SUGGESTED THAT A LOT OF WHAT ELON MUSK AND DOGE ARE DOING IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

YOU HAVE COVERED ELON MUSK FOR A LONG TIME.

DOES HE ABIDE BY COURT RULINGS?

AND DECISION-MAKING THERE?

BECAUSE WE KNOW HE HAS BEEN ATTACKING A LOT OF THESE JUDGES ON X AND PUBLICLY.

WILL HE ACTUALLY ABIDE BY THEIR RULINGS AT THE END OF THE DAY?

>> THAT IS TO BE SEEN.

OF COURSE, HE DOES NOT, HE VERY RARELY HAVE --VERY RARELY HAVE COURTS VOTED IN OPPOSITION TO TRUMP.

BUT WHEN THEY DO, IN CASES LIKE WHEN ELON MUSK WANTED TO BACK OUT OF THE TWITTER DEAL AND THINGS LIKE THAT, HE WAS NOT ABLE TO DO SO AND BECAME IRATE AT THE CHANCERY REPORT IN DELAWARE.

SO, LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF WHAT WE WILL SEE WITH ELON MUSK IN THE RESPONSE WILL COME AT THE HAND OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANT THEM TO DO.

BECAUSE AT THIS POINT, IS IT LIKE THAT IS THE ONLY PERSON THAT ELON MUSK MIGHT ACTUALLY TAKE ANY ADVICE OR DIRECTION FROM.

>> AS PER THE BIGGEST FUNDRAISER, THERE ARE MANY REASONS AS TO WHY HE WOULD KEEP THEM AROUND FOR THE QUESTION IS, FOR HOW LONG?

AT WHAT POINT DOES HE BECOME JUST A LIABILITY TO THE PRESIDENT?

ON THE SURFACE, ANY AMERICAN WOULD SAY, SURE, WE WANT TO CUT EXCESS SPENDING AND WASTE, FRAUD, AND ABUSE.

BUT GIVEN THE TACTICS THAT WE HAVE SEEN DOGE AND ELON MUSK USE, HOW POPULAR IS DOGE AMONG AMERICANS RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH.

IT SEEMS LIKE ELON MUSK HIMSELF HAS BEEN TANKING IN POPULARITY.

WE HAVE SEEN THE RESPONSE THAT FOLKS HAVE HAD WITH PROTESTS OUTSIDE OF TESLA DEALERSHIPS, PROTESTING HIS CYBER TRUCKS.

TO BE DRIVING A CYBERTRUCK IF YOU DO NOT WANT IT TO BE, YOU KNOW, WITH A NOTE WRITTEN ON IT SAYING SOMETHING MEAN ABOUT ELON MUSK OR YOU PURCHASING IT.

IT SEEMS AS IF, YOU KNOW, HIS POPULARITY IS TANKING.

OF COURSE, THAT COULD JUST BE A SUDDEN, YOU KNOW, RESPONSE TO EVERYTHING THAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

HE IS, OF COURSE, BOUNCING BACK FROM DIPS IN POPULARITY BEFORE.

BUT THIS IS DEFINITELY HAVING A LASTING IMPRESSION BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, A CHANGE IN THE STOCK PRICE OF TESLA, THIS IS REAL PEOPLE'S LIVES, FOLKS WHO ARE LOSING JOBS, CAREERS THAT THEY HAVE SPENT DECADES WITH.

THERE ARE OVER 2 MILLION FOLKS IN THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE, AND THAT IS A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE END OF THE DAY DRIVING PUBLIC OPINION.

>> AND WE HAVE SEEN VANDALISM AGAINST SOME OF HIS PRODUCTS AND CARS AS WELL.

THE FBI IS OPENING AN INVESTIGATION INTO WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS TERRORISM, ACTUALLY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, HOW DO YOU THINK THIS ENDS?

THERE HAVE BEEN A BETTING MARKET THAT TRUMP WOULD GET TIRED AND BORED OF ELON MUSK, THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE TWO PEOPLE WITH SUCH BIG EGOS YOU KNOW, RUNNING THE COUNTRY, ESSENTIALLY.

DO YOU SEE ELON MUSK GROWING BOARD AND BAILING OUT EARLIER?

OR DO YOU THINK IS ULTIMATELY DEPENDS ON WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DECIDES TO DO?

>> YEAH.

WHEN IT COMES TO ELON MUSK BOUNCING, HE HAS DONE THIS BEFORE, HE HAS DONE THIS ON A NUMBER OF COMPANIES.

HE WILL SPEND A LOT OF TIME AT SPACEX AND A LOT OF TIME AT TESLA.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, IN 2022, HIS NEW AND EXCITING THING, HIS NEW LITTLE TOY WAS X, OR IT WAS FORMALLY CALLED TWITTER.

AND SO RIGHT NOW, I FEEL AS IF THOUGH DOGE IS A SHINY NEW THING FOR HIM RIGHT NOW.

BUT THAT COULD CHANGE IN THE FUTURE, IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

AND SO HE HAS A WAY OF OPERATING.

WE HAVE SEEN THE WAY THAT HIS ATTENTION JUST CHANGES AS, YOU KNOW, IT JUST CHANGES DEPENDING ON WHAT IT IS THAT HE IS INTERESTED IN.

AND I ASSUME IT MAY BE IN THE NEXT LITTLE WHILE, HE MAY FIND SOMETHING ELSE.

OR THIS JOB, YOU KNOW, WORKING WITHIN THE BECOMES A VERY FRUITFUL THING AND MAYBE HE STAYS A LITTLE LONGER.

>> KEEPS A GOLDEN CHAINSAW A LITTLE BIT LONGER.

WE WILL SLEEP YOUR MECHANIC KELLY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> S, THANK YOU.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK WHERE THE PALESTINIAN CODIRECTOR OF THE OSCAR-WINNING FILM "NO OTHER LAND" HAS BEEN RELEASED FROM ISRAELI CUSTODY AFTER BEING HELD OVERNIGHT IN POLICE DETENTION.

HIS LAWYER SAYS THAT HE WAS HELD ARBITRARILY.

EYEWITNESSES SAY THAT HE WAS BEATEN UP BY ISRAELI SETTLERS ON MONDAY EVENING BEFORE BEING DETAINED BY SOLDIERS.

ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS THAT IT ARRIVED AT THE SCENE OF A VIOLENT CONFRONTATION BETWEEN PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS WHO WERE THROWING ROCKS AT EACH OTHER.

BELOW IS A PALESTINIAN FOREIGNER WHO HAD BEEN SUBJECT TO INTIMIDATION BY ISRAELI SETTLERS BEFORE THIS LATEST INCIDENT.

HIS LAWYER IS WARNING THAT HIS RELEASE DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE HARASSMENT IS OVER.

>>> MEANWHILE IN GAZA, A GRIM MILESTONE.

MORE THAN 50,000 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE OCTOBER 7th, 2023, ACCORDING TO THE HEALTH MINISTRY THERE.

IT HAS PUBLISHED THE NAMES OF MORE THAN 15,000 CHILDREN.

IT SAYS HAS BEEN KILLED BY ISRAEL, INCLUDING 890 CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF ONE.

ISRAEL DISPUTES THE FIGURES, SAYING THAT THE MINISTRY REPORTS NATURAL DEATHS, BUT FOR CHILDREN IN GAZA, A PEACEFUL CHILDHOOD IS A DISTANT REALITY.

DURING THE BRIEF CEASE-FIRE, WORKERS FLOODED INTO HELP, INCLUDING MY NEXT GUEST, SHAYNA AL BEATTY.

AS THE WERE RESUMES, I SPOKE TO HER ABOUT WHAT SHE IS SEEING THERE IN GAZA.

A WARNING, PARTS OF THIS INTERVIEW MAY BE DIFFICULT TO HEAR.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT STORY.

EARLIER THIS WEEK, THE GAZA HEALTH MINISTRY PUBLISHED A LIST OF OVER 15,000 NAMES OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THIS WAR UNDER THE AGE OF 18.

AMONG THEM, NEARLY 900 CHILDREN WERE UNDER THE AGE OF ONE.

274 WERE BORN AND DIED DURING THE WAR.

26% UNDER THE AGE OF FIVE.

ISRAEL, WE SHOULD NOTE, HAS DISPUTED THESE FIGURES, BUT DID NOT OFFER ITS OWN FIGURES IN RESPONSE.

YOU ARE ON THE GROUND THERE IN GAZA.

I'M JUST CURIOUS WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, WHAT YOU ARE HEARING FROM THE CHILDREN?

>> THE NEWS IN GAZA FROM WHEN I ARRIVED TO HOW IT IS NOW HAS SHIFTED DRASTICALLY.

I THINK WHEN I ARRIVED, THERE WAS A BRIEF PAUSE IN HOSTILITIES, THERE WAS A LOT OF HOPE OF PEOPLE REBUILDING THEIR LIVES.

BUT THAT NIGHT THAT THE WAR RESUMED, IT ALL JUST DESCENDED LIKE A NIGHTMARE.

IT CAME WITHOUT WARNING, IT WAS AGGRESSIVE AND TENSE.

THE ENTIRE GAZA STRIP WAS UNDER ATTACK.

PEOPLE ARE EMOTIONALLY DRAINED.

THEY ARE DEPRESSED.

THEY WERE JUST STARTING TO REBUILD THEIR LIVES.

YOU KNOW.

JUST SO EXCITED FOR THE FUTURE.

AND NOW THEY FACE MORE DEVASTATION.

THERE IS A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY.

PEOPLE KEEP SAYING, AM I THE AND THE SIMPLE PHRASE IS -- THEY JUST CARRY AN UNBEARABLE GRAVITY.

BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS IF THEY WILL BE SEEING EACH OTHER TOMORROW.

EVERY DAY SINCE THE ATTACKS, WE HAVE BEEN HEARING BOMBS, WE HAVE BEEN HEARING DRONES, ARTILLERY'S, HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS.

SO, LAST NIGHT THERE WAS A REALLY LOUD EXPLOSION FROM A BOMB, AND IT RATTLED THE WHOLE HOUSE.

>> THE NIGHT THE WAR RESUMED, I BELIEVE THAT WAS MARCH 18th.

TELL US ABOUT THAT DAY.

>> I MEAN, IT WAS JUST THE MOST TERRIFYING, TERRIFYING NIGHT OF MY LIFE.

I HAD NEVER FELT SO SCARED.

THE ATTACK CAME WITHOUT ANY WARNING, IT WAS SO LOUD, THE WHOLE HOUSE WAS SHAKING.

YOU COULD HEAR THE AMBULANCE AND CHAOS OUTSIDE.

I WAS INDOORS, I DID NOT GO TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I JUST FROZE.

I COULD NOT MOVE.

I COULD NOT MOVE.

SO, HAD SOMEONE TOLD ME, GO OUTSIDE, I JUST WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET UP BECAUSE OF ALL THE LOUD BANGS FROM THAT NIGHT.

IT IS A NIGHT THAT I WILL NOT EVER FORGET.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE WOKE UP IN THE MORNING, THERE WAS REPORTED 400 PEOPLE HAVE DIED.

174 OF THOSE WERE CHILDREN.

IT WAS THE DEADLIEST DAY FOR CHILDREN IN GAZA SINCE THIS WHOLE WAR BEGAN.

>> AND WAS THERE ANY WARNING, ANY LEAFLETS DROPPED?

ANY INDICATION IN YOUR PART FROM WHAT YOU UNDERSTOOD AND FROM FAMILIES THAT YOU SPOKE TO ABOUT WHERE THEY COULD GO?

ANY SORT OF HEADS UP ABOUT WAR RESUMING?

>> NO, NOTHING.

NO WARNING.

I MEAN, THE DAY BEFORE, ONLY THE DAY BEFORE, I WAS AT ONE OF HER CHILD FROM THE SPACES.

AND EVERYONE WAS EXCITED THAT DAY, SOME GIRLS WERE TELLING ME THAT THEY WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO GOING BACK TO SCHOOL.

AND IT JUST FELT LIKE A REALLY NICE DAY.

AS I SAID, THE MOOD WAS VERY HELPFUL.

AND THAT NIGHT, IT JUST TOOK US BY SURPRISE.

>> THESE CONVERSATIONS YOU ARE HAVING WITH CHILDREN, I AM SO CURIOUS TO HEAR ABOUT WHAT THEY TELL YOU, WHAT LIFE HAS BEEN LIKE FOR THEM OVER THE PAST 17 OR 18 MONTHS.

HOW MUCH THEY KNOW ABOUT OCTOBER 7th, THE START OF THE WAR, THE ATTACKS ON ISRAEL, THE CEASE-FIRE THAT HAD BEEN IN PLACE FOR 2 MONTHS.

ARE THEY AWARE OF THE NEWS REPORTS ABOUT WHAT THIS ALL IS?

AND WHAT ARE THE QUESTIONS THEY ARE ASKING YOU?

>> Reporter: SO, I WILL JUST START BY SAYING THAT I HAVE MET CHILDREN WHO HAVE WITNESSED AND ENDURED HORRORS THAT NO I DO NOT HAVE THE WORDS TO DESCRIBE THE DEPTH OF THE SUFFERING HERE.

I MEAN, CHILDREN'S LANGUAGE HERE IS ONE SHAPE OF WAR.

INSTEAD OF ASKING THEIR PARENTS, WHEN ARE WE GOING TO THE PARK OR WHERE CAN WE GET ICE CREAM, KIDS HERE, THEIR LANGUAGE IS, WHERE IS THE CLOSEST PLACE WE CAN FETCH WATER?

WHERE IS THE CLOSEST COMMUNITY KITCHEN TO GET FOOD?

WHERE ARE THE TOILETS?

THEY ARE TERRIFIED.

I MEAN, AS I SAID, I CAME HERE DURING THE PAUSE.

SO I CAME HERE EARLY IN FEBRUARY.

AND MY FIRST IMPRESSIONS OF GAZA, IT TOOK ABOUT 30 SECONDS TO BE OVERWHELMED BY WHAT I SAW.

IT WAS ENDLESS DESTRUCTION.

IT FELT LIKE I WAS FLOATING THROUGH A SEA OF RUBBLE BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE BUILDING STANDING IN THE ENTIRE IT WAS COMPLETELY SHATTERED.

AND THERE WERE CHILDREN, THERE WERE CHILDREN PLAYING, THEY WERE SMILING, THEY WERE CLIMBING ON TOP OF THE RUBBLE.

AND THE ENVIRONMENT AROUND THEM WAS JUST SO FAR FROM NORMAL.

THEY SMILED.

BUT WHEN I ASKED THEM ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE DURING THE WAR, I AM LEFT SPEECHLESS.

SO THERE WAS ONE MOTHER THAT WAS TELLING ME HOW HER 12-YEAR- OLD BOY HAD TO PICK UP THE REMAINS OF A DEAD BABY AFTER AN EXPLOSION HAD THAT BABY FLYING ONTO A TREE.

AND THIS BOY SUFFERS FROM NIGHTMARES SINCE THAT DAY.

I MET MOTHERS THAT WERE TELLING ME ABOUT THE DESPERATE MEASURES THAT THEY HAD TO TAKE TO FEED THEIR CHILDREN.

NOW FAMILIES, PARTICULARLY IN THE NORTH OF GAZA, HAD ZERO ACCESS TO FOOD.

THERE WAS NO WATER.

AND THERE WAS ONE MOTHER SAYING THAT SHE WAS FEEDING HER CHILDREN ANIMAL FEED.

IT WAS EITHER THAT OR THEY STARVED TO DEATH.

OTHERS ONLY HAD GRASS AND THERE WAS ANOTHER MOTHER THAT WAS TELLING ME THAT WHEN SHE WAS MOVING FROM THE NORTH TO THE SOUTH AFTER RECEIVING AN EVACUATION ORDER, EN ROUTE, THEY WERE SEEING DEAD BODIES.

AND OUR CHILDREN, ALL OF HER CHILDREN, WERE EXPOSED TO THAT.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, THEY WERE SEEING THE DEAD BODIES BEING EATEN BY DOGS.

AND NOW THE KIDS WHAT THEMSELVES, THEY CANNOT CONTROL IT.

THEY ARE AFRAID OF GOING OUTSIDE.

THEY THINK THAT THERE ARE DEAD PEOPLE OUTSIDE.

BUT WITH ALL OF THOSE, THERE ARE JUST SO MANY TRAGIC STORIES AND EXPERIENCES OF FAMILIES HERE.

THEY HAVE SEEN THINGS NO ONE SHOULD EVER SEE.

BUT THEY ALL HANG ONTO HOPE.

THE CHILDREN HERE DURING THE PAUSE WERE SO EXCITED THAT SCHOOLS WERE GOING TO BE OPEN.

AND THEY WERE SAYING THAT WE ARE GOING TO REBUILD GAZA.

AND THEY FIND THE STRENGTH TO SMILE.

AND ALL OF THEM, ALL OF THEM TELL ME THAT THEY LOVE LIFE.

THEY HAVE ONE LIFE AND WE WANT TO JUST LIVE IT.

>> THE FACT THAT YOU SEE CHILDREN SMILE DURING THAT BRIEF PERIOD OF PAUSE AND PLAYING ON WHATEVER MAKESHIFT PLAYGROUNDS THEY CAN FIND, IT IS SOMETHING THAT JUST STICKS IN THE MIND.

WHAT DO THESE CHILDREN TELL YOU THAT THEY FEAR MOST NOW?

>> WELL, DURING THE PAUSE, I MET SOME TEENAGERS.

SO I SPOKE WITH A LOT OF TEENAGERS DURING THE PAUSE.

AND THEIR BIGGEST FEAR WAS THAT THE WAR WOULD RESTART.

THEIR BIGGEST FEAR IS THAT THE WAR WOULD RESUME.

AND IT JUST, IT JUST WEIGHS HEAVY.

IT IS NOW A REALITY, IT IS HAPPENING, THE WAR HAS RESUMED.

CHILDREN ARE DYING EN MASSE.

GAZA, I CANNOT TELL YOU, I CANNOT BEGIN TO DESCRIBE THE LEVEL OF NEED HERE, THE SITUATION, THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IS CATASTROPHIC.

SO, SINCE THE START OF THIS BEEN ENTERING GAZA.

NO COMMERCIAL PORTS.

SO OUR LOCAL PARTNERS HAD DONE A SURVEY TO IDENTIFY WITH THE BIGGEST NEEDS FOR CHILDREN WERE.

AND THEY FOUND THAT THOSE WHO LIVE IN THE NORTH OF GAZA, THEY NEEDED WATER, THEY NEEDED FOOD, AND THEY NEEDED SHOES.

BUT IN THE SOUTH OF GAZA, THE TOP THREE WERE SHOES, CLOSE, AND WHEELCHAIRS.

AND CHILDREN WITH DISABILITIES ARE FACING HUGE CHALLENGES.

AND WE ARE SEEING MORE INJURED CHILDREN AND HEALTH PROFESSIONALS, THEY DO NOT EVEN HAVE THE BARE MINIMUM, THE BARE MINIMUM PAINKILLERS TO TREAT THE INJURED.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, THE STATE OF THE HEALTHCARE SERVICES THERE.

AND ANY SUPPORT, MEDICAL SUPPORT.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE PSYCHOLOGICAL SUPPORT THAT YEARS TO COME.

BUT THE URGENT MEDICAL CARE, IS IT THERE AND AVAILABLE?

>> QUITE HONESTLY, NO.

NO.

MEDICAL SUPPLIES ARE NOT GETTING INTO GAZA RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS A LOCK IN AID.

NOTHING HAS BEEN ABLE TO GET INTO GAZA.

THE MEDICAL SUPPLIES THAT WE DO HAVE IN OUR HEALTHCARE CLINICS, I MEAN, THEY WILL RUN OUT, THEY WILL.

IN A MATTER OF WEEKS, UNLESS THE SITUATION CHANGES.

I AM VERY, VERY SCARED.

I AM TERRIFIED.

I HAVE NOT WORKED IN A CONTEXT LIKE THIS.

THIS IS MY FIRST TIME IN GAZA.

I HAD SPOKEN TO A LOT OF FAMILIES THAT WERE DESCRIBING, THEY WERE DESCRIBING THE FEAR THAT THEY HAD TO LIVE THROUGH DURING THE WAR, 16 MONTHS OF IT.

THEY LIVE THROUGH 16 MONTHS OF THE TERROR THAT I FELT ON MARCH 18th.

>> SHAYNA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

AND POLICE, POLICE DO SAY SAFE.

>> THINK YOU SO MUCH.

>> TURNING TO THE WHITE HOUSE WHERE A 73-YEAR-OLD LEGAL STATUTE IS BEING USED TO DEFEND THE TRUMPET MINISTRATION'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN.

IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT OF 1952 WAS PASSED AMID ANTI- COMMUNIST FEARS DURING THE EARLY COLD WAR.

IN THAT PERIOD OF HISTORY, IT IS THE FOCUS OF A NEW BOOK, RED SCARE.

BLACKLIST, McCARTHYISM, AND THE MAKING OF MODERN AMERICA.

THE AUTHOR AND REPORTER, CLAY RICE AND JOINS TO DISCUSS WHAT PAST POLITICAL HYSTERIA TELLS US ABOUT THE PRESENT.

>> Reporter: THANK YOU.

I THINK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

FIRST, I GUESS FOR OUR AUDIENCE THAT MAY NOT HAVE PAID ATTENTION IN HISTORY CLASS, THE RED SCARE.

WHY DID IT HAPPEN?

WHAT WAS IT?

JUST SET THE TABLE FOR US.

>> YES.

THE RED SCARE WAS A PERIOD ROUGHLY FROM THE END OF WORLD WAR II, 1946, HE WENT FOR ABOUT A DECADE.

1957.

ALTHOUGH IT IS HARD TO PUT DATES ON THESE THINGS.

BUT IT WAS A PERIOD OF RAMPANT AND UNCHECKED ANTI-COMMUNIST HYSTERIA.

THERE WAS A REAL REASON FOR IT, LOOK, THERE WERE SOME SOVIET ESPIONAGE IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE WAS THE COLD WAR, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT IT GOT OUT OF HAND IN A PRETTY DANGEROUS WAY AND A SCARY WAY.

WHERE EVEN TEACHERS, POSTAL WORKERS WERE BEING CALLED INTO QUESTION FOR THEIR LOYALTY TO AMERICA.

>> SO, WHAT WAS THE KIND OF UNDERLYING TENSIONS THAT MADE AMERICANS WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE SOVIET INFILTRATION.

WE WERE LITERALLY ALLIES WITH THE SOVIET.

>> YEAH, ONE IS A LONG AND SIMMERING CONTEXT BETWEEN THE PROGRESSIVE AMERICA THAT CAME THAT WAS ORIENTED MORE TOWARDS THE PLURALIST VISION, VERY MUCH EMBRACING WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND CIVIL RIGHTS, BUT ALSO A VERY ACTIVE GOVERNMENT.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, A CONSERVATISM THAT WENT VERY STRONGLY AGAINST THAT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

SOME OF WHICH WERE PRETTY CONSPIRATORIAL.

AND THAT SIMMERED FOR A LONG TIME.

THE GREAT DEPRESSION WAS ON, ROOSEVELT WAS POPULAR.

AND AS HE SAID, THE WAR STARTED.

AND WE WERE ALLIES WITH THE SOVIET UNION.

BUT PRETTY IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT, THINGS CHANGED DRAMATICALLY, SO THAT THE SOVIETS BECAME OUR COLD WAR ENEMIES, BUT PART OF THAT MESSAGE COMING FROM PRESIDENT TRUMAN AND FROM CONGRESS WAS THAT THIS WAR HAS TO BE FOUGHT DOMESTICALLY AS WELL.

THAT WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO BE 100% SECURITY MINDED.

AND SO ANYONE WHO EVEN HAS THE IOTA OF POSSIBLE QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR LOYALTY, THEY HAVE TO BE EXCLUDED FROM, EVENTUALLY FROM SOCIETY, NOT JUST FROM, YOU KNOW, FROM SENSITIVE JOBS, BUT WE SAW PEOPLE KICKED OUT OF TEACHING JOBS, OUT OF, YOU KNOW, NOT GIVEN FISHING LICENSES BECAUSE THEY WERE SUSPECT IN SOME WAY.

I MEAN, IT GOT OUT OF HAND IN WAYS THAT WERE FUNNY OR WOULD BE FUNNY IF THEY WERE NOT SO SCARY.

>> YEAH, WHAT WAS THE KIND OF DOMINO EFFECT?

SOMETIMES WHEN YOU LOOK BACK IN HISTORY IN HINDSIGHT, YOU SAY, HOW DID THESE PEOPLE AT ALL OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN?

BUT WAS THERE KIND OF AN INCREMENTAL INCREASE OR DECREASE IN THE CIVIL LIBERTIES?

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> YES, THERE ABSOLUTELY WAS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED VERY EARLY ON IS PRESIDENT TRUMAN, WHO DID NOT REALLY BELIEVE IN THE THREAT OF SOVIET ESPIONAGE IS A BIG THREAT, HE KNEW THAT THERE WERE SPIES, BUT HE DID NOT THINK THAT IT WAS A PROBLEM, AND HE DID NOT THINK THE COMMUNISTS WERE ABOUT TO TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.

BUT BECAUSE OF THAT, HE THOUGHT HE COULD ESSENTIALLY BUY OFF THE FBI DIRECTOR, J EDGAR HOOVER, BUY OFF HIS CRITICS IN CONGRESS WITH WHAT WAS TERMED A LOYALTY PARTNERING.

THEY ESSENTIALLY INVESTIGATED ANYONE WHO WANTED A JOB IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND ANYONE WHO WORKED IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

BUT THE PROCESS WAS VERY POORLY CONSTRUCTED.

AND VERY QUICKLY, PEOPLE WERE BEING HOUNDED FOR TINY LITTLE BLIPS AND ANONYMOUS TIPS THAT WOULD COME INTO THE FBI, ULTIMATELY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATED.

AND THIS HAD A KNOCKDOWN EFFECT WITH THE REST OF SOCIETY.

BECAUSE AS SOON AS THE PRESIDENT SAID, THIS IS OF SUCH CONCERN THAT WE ARE GOING TO CHECK EVERYBODY, THEN OTHER INDUSTRIES FOLLOWED SUIT.

AND VERY IMPORTANTLY, A LOT OF POLITICAL OPPORTUNISTS SAW THE MOMENT AND USED THIS FEAR THAT WAS BOILING UP AS A WAY TO GO AFTER THEIR ENEMIES, RAISE THEIR OWN PROFILE, ULTIMATELY, THE SENATOR FROM WISCONSIN IS THE BEST EXAMPLE OF THIS.

HE LENT HIS NAME TO THE ERA.

BUT THERE WERE MANY OTHER PEOPLE LIKE HIM, BOTH BEFORE AND DURING HIS REIGN OF TERROR.

>> YOU KNOW, I WONDER, AND THIS WAS IN THE LIVING LIFETIMES OF SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAD JUST WITNESSED WHAT HAPPENED IN GERMANY, WITH PEOPLE TURNING ON EACH OTHER.

BEING ASKED AND INCENTIVIZED TO TURN IN THEIR NEIGHBORS.

SO IT IS, LIKE, WE THINK ABOUT THAT LIKE SOME SORT OF BYGONE ERA.

WE READ ABOUT IT IN THE HISTORY BOOKS.

WE ARE TALK ABOUT A DECADE AND A HALF OR LESS.

>> YES.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN WE THINK BACK TO THAT MOMENT OR MAYBE THE RECENT PAST IS HOW FRAGILE CIVIL LIBERTIES ARE, AND HOW EAGER, HOW WILLING PEOPLE ARE TO TRADE SOME CIVIL LIBERTIES FOR THE PROMISE OF SECURITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY GERMANY IS AN EXTREME EXAMPLE OF THAT.

BUT I THINK IN AMERICA, A LOT OF PEOPLE SAW IT AS A TRADE OFF.

IT WAS NOT THAT THEY WERE WILLING TO GIVE UP ALL CIVIL LIBERTIES, BUT MAYBE THE CIVIL LIBERTIES OF SOME PEOPLE.

MAYBE SOME OF THEIR OWN CIVIL LIBERTIES, BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING TOLD THAT THIS WAS THIS OVERWHELMING THREAT, THAT THERE WERE COMMUNISTS ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES WHO WERE POISED TO TAKE OVER.

>> THE SECOND HALF OF THE BOOK TITLE IS THE MAKING OF MODERN AMERICA.

SO, WHAT WERE THE CONSEQUENCES, WHAT ARE THE KINDS OF LONG-TERM IMPACT THAT THE RED SCARE HAD IN SHAPING THE AMERICA THAT WE LIVE IN TODAY?

>> YES, THERE ARE A COUPLE.

ONE IS THAT IT REALLY PUT IN PLACE THE RED, THE LEFT AND RIGHT DIVIDE THAT WE KNOW TODAY.

IT DID NOT CREATE IT, IT HAD ALREADY BEEN THERE.

BUT IT GAVE THIS SHARP UNDERLINE TO THIS IDEA THAT THE LEFT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE SUSPECT FOR CERTAIN THINGS THAT HAVE DONE.

AFFILIATION WITH RADICALISM.

AND IT ALSO CREATED ON THE RIGHT A CERTAIN, OFTEN FRINGE ELEMENT THAT --NOT JUST OPPOSED TO BIG GOVERNMENT, BUT TRULY BELIEVED THE GOVERNMENT WAS EVIL.

AND SO WHILE THERE IS ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, THERE IS BIPARTISANSHIP AND HEALTHY COMPETITION IN THE MIDDLE FOR DECADES AFTER, THERE WAS ALWAYS THIS UNDERCURRENT OF TENSION THAT'S POPPED UP OCCASIONALLY.

YOU KNOW, THE GOLDWATER MOVEMENT, OR BUCHANAN IN THE 90s, I THINK THAT IS AN IMPORTANT CONTEXT.

BUT THE FLIP SIDE IS THAT WE ALSO, AT LEAST FOR A PERIOD, WE REASSERTED OUR COMMITMENT TO CIVIL LIBERTIES.

AND I THINK A LOT OF THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT IN THE 50s AND 60s, AND THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT, AND VARIOUS OTHER PUSHES FOR EQUALITY, AND FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES CAME OUT OF THE EXPERIENCE OF THE RED SCARE, AND THE COMMITMENT, AT LEAST ON PARTS OF THE LEFT, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DID NOT GO BACK TO THAT.

>> JUST IN READING YOUR BOOK, SEVERAL TIMES, I WAS APPRISED BY HOW THESE AUTHORITARIAN, AND IN SOME WAYS, FASCIST TENDENCIES WRAP THEMSELVES IN THE AMERICAN FLAG.

I MEAN, THE IDEA OF A HOUSE UN- AMERICAN COMMITTEE IS SO UN- AMERICAN ON ITS FACE.

RIGHT?

BUT JUST, LIKE, HOW DID WE BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS THE KEY TO BECOMING MORE AMERICAN IS TO ACT LESS LIKE AMERICANS?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A STRAIN OF THINKING, PARTICULARLY ON THE RIGHT, OF WHAT AMERICANISM IS.

RIGHT?

AND IT IS ALWAYS DEBATABLE, IT IS ALWAYS DEBATED.

BUT THERE IS THIS LINE ABOUT A SORT OF PURITY OF THOUGHT, PURITY AND ASSOCIATION, AND THAT THE VALUES THAT ARE INHERENT IN THE CONSTITUTION, AND OFTEN CELEBRATED BY MANY ON THE RIGHT, NOT ALL, BUT LARGELY ON THE LEFT, OVERT DISSENT AND OVER DEBATE, THESE THINGS ARE INHERENTLY DIFFICULT FOR SOME PEOPLE TO WRAP THEIR HEADS AROUND WHEN THEY HAVE THAT KIND OF NARROW COMMITMENT TO AMERICANISM.

AND SO YOU FIND SITUATIONS THROUGHOUT MODERN AMERICAN HISTORY WHEN THAT PERSPECTIVE, THAT IDEA THAT THERE IS ONE LINE TO WALK, IN TERMS OF WHAT AMERICANISM IS, WHEN THAT IS EMPOWERED, IT BECOMES VERY EASY TO DECIDE WHO STANDS OUTSIDE FROM THAT.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THESE BOOKS NOT TIME THEIR FINDING IT RELEVANT IN DIFFERENT WAYS FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY.

AND I WONDER IF THAT IS TOO MUCH OF A STRETCH.

CAN WE SEE THESE PARALLELS, ARE WE PROJECTING WHAT WE WANT, IF YOU WANT TO USE THE WORD McCARTHYISM.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST MONTH AND A HALF OR SO THAT YOU MIGHT FEEL LIKE, HEY, THIS IS AN APPROPRIATE ANALOGY, THIS IS A REASONABLE PARALLEL THAT WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT?

>> EVERY DAY, I WAKE UP AND THERE IS A NEW STORY THAT REMINDS ME OF SOMETHING FROM THAT ERA FROM MY BOOK.

THE BOOK WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE THAT WAY.

NONE OF THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, I DO NOT HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL, I WOULD NOT BE WRITING BOOKS IF I DID.

SOME PARALLELS ARE SUPERFICIAL.

PEOPLE EMPLOYING McCARTHYISM TACTICS HERE AND THERE, WHICH PEOPLE HAVE DONE FOR A LONG TIME.

>> WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, JUST LAST YEAR, SENATOR VANCE, WHEN HE WAS A SENATOR, DURING THE DEBATE, OR THE WITCH-HUNT AROUND HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES IN OHIO WHO WERE SUPPOSEDLY EATING DOGS.

AND HE WAS CHALLENGED WITH EVIDENCE SHOWING THAT WAS NOT TRUE.

AND HE SAID, WELL, IT DOES NOT REALLY, I AM PARAPHRASING.

HE SAID IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THIS OR THAT ACCUSATION IS TRUE, THE LARGER POINT IS TRUE.

WHICH IS THAT IMMIGRATION IS A PROBLEM FOR THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE FALSEHOODS ARE IN SERVICE OF A HIGHER TRUTH.

AND THAT WAS AN ARGUMENT THAT McCARTHY USED ALL THE TIME AND HIS DEFENDERS USED.

HE WOULD SAY, MAYBE I GOT THIS ACCUSATION WRONG AGAINST THIS PERSON, BUT IT IS STILL TRUE THAT THERE ARE COMMUNISTS IN THE GOVERNMENT.

AND SO I AM MAKING MISTAKES, BUT I'M TRYING TO GET TO THE TRUTH.

AND THAT IS VERY DANGEROUS.

RIGHT?

OF COURSE, HE NEVER DID FIND COMMUNISTS.

BUT PEOPLE LET HIM DO THIS BECAUSE HE CLAIMED TO BE FIGHTING FOR SOME HIGHER TRUTH.

NOW, BUT THAT, A LOT OF PEOPLE USE THAT TACTIC.

NOW, WE HAVE THIS ISSUE, AT LEAST IN THE LEGAL COMMUNITY, YOU HAVE A LOT OF LARGE FIRMS THAT ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT ASSERTING OR DEFENDING CLIENTS WHO ARE ACCUSED OF THIS OR THAT BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THEY ARE AFRAID OF SPEAKING OUT.

THAT HAPPENED ALL OVER THE PLACE DURING THE RED SCARE.

LAWYERS WERE VERY HARD TO FIND.

IF YOU WERE ACCUSED OF BEING DISLOYAL TO THE UNITED STATES OR ACCUSED OF BEING A SECURITY RISK, YOU CANNOT JUST TURN IT TO YOUR LAWYER.

YOU COULD NOT GO TO ANY LARGE FIRM.

THERE WERE VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO WERE WILLING TO STAND UP AND SAY, I WILL DEFEND YOU, I WILL TAKE THIS ON.

YOU KNOW, FOR THE SAME REASONS.

THEY WERE AFRAID OF LOSING CLIENTS, THEY WERE AFRAID OF, YOU KNOW, HURTING THE ATTENTION OF GUYS LIKE JOE McCARTHY.

>> SO, I WONDER IF THERE WERE TURNING POINTS THAT YOU COULD IDENTIFY NOW AT THE BENEFIT OF HISTORY THAT SAID, OKAY, THIS MOMENT STARTED TO TURN THE TIDE.

AND THESE TWO OTHER MOMENTS REALLY HELPED.

>> YEAH.

I THINK, LOOK.

GEOPOLITICS HAD A BIG PART TO PLAY.

JOSEPH STALIN DIED IN 1953.

THE SAME YEAR THAT THE KOREAN WAR ENDED.

THE COLD WAR KIND OF, YOU KNOW, IF IT WAS SIMMERING, IT WENT BACK TO JUST BEING, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE CALMER.

AND SO PEOPLE WERE WILLING, AMERICANS COULD KIND OF RELAX A LITTLE BIT.

BUT IT ALSO MATTERED THAT THROUGHOUT THE RED SCARE, PEOPLE STOOD UP.

NOT EVERYBODY.

AND OFTEN TIMES, WITH GREAT CONSEQUENCE.

BUT THE HOLLYWOOD 10 STOOD UP TO THE HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE AND WENT TO JAIL FOR IT.

DOZENS OF OTHER AMERICANS DID THE SAME THING AND WENT TO JAIL.

BUT IT MATTERED OVER TIME THAT PEOPLE STOOD UP.

EDWARD R MURROW STOOD UP TO JOE McCARTHY.

AND VERY FAMOUSLY PRODUCED A DOCUMENT, A 30 MINUTE SHOW THAT HELPED TANK McCARTHY'S POPULARITY, SHOWING THAT HE WAS A BULLY AND THAT THERE WAS EXCEPT THAT.

EARL WARREN, THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE DROVE THE COURT TO SYSTEMATICALLY DISMANTLE ELEMENTS OF THE RED SCARE, THE TOOLS AND ARCHITECT SURE OF THE RED SCARE.

AND WHILE ALL OF THESE DID NOT HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME, IT TOOK TIME.

AND IT EVENTUALLY HELPED REMOVE THE THREAT.

SORT OF LOWER THE FEAR.

LOOK, THE HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE WAS AROUND FOR A LONG TIME AFTER THAT.

REDBAITING WAS A TACTIC THROUGHOUT THE 1960s.

AND I WOULD SAY IT CONTINUES TO BE TODAY.

BUT THE FEAR WAS REMOVED.

AND I THINK IT TOOK ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT ACTORS WILLING TO STAND UP FOR IT TO FINALLY COME TO AN END.

>> SO, I WONDER IF, YOU KNOW, I AM A NERD, PROBABLY LIKE YOURSELF AS WELL.

IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF AN EDWARD R MURROW TODAY, GIVEN LANDSCAPE IS SO FRAGMENTED?

IS THERE A MOMENT LIKE THAT, THAT IS POSSIBLE?

INDIVIDUALS LIKE THAT, THAT CAN HAVE THE IMPACT GIVEN THAT WE ARE LIVING THROUGH THESE SORT OF FILTERS AND OUR OWN ECOSYSTEMS OF CONSUMPTION?

>> I THINK THERE IS.

BUT WITH THIS EXPLANATION, WHAT MURROW UNDERSTOOD WAS THAT McCARTHY WAS A NEWSPAPER GUY.

McCARTHY SUCCEEDED BECAUSE HE UNDERSTOOD HOW THE NEWSPAPER ECOSYSTEM WORKED.

HE UNDERSTOOD THAT IF HE GOT A SCOOP TO A JOURNALIST RIGHT BEFORE DEADLINE, HE COULD BASICALLY SAY ANYTHING HE WANTED BECAUSE THAT JOURNALIST WAS GOING TO ESSENTIALLY REPRINT IT WITHOUT CHECKING IT.

BUT PEOPLE NEVER SAW HIM LIVE.

OR THEY NEVER SAW HIM IN ACTION.

THEY ALWAYS SAW HIM, MAYBE A PHOTOGRAPH, USUALLY A TEXT.

AND MURROW UNDERSTOOD THAT TV WOULD BE DIFFERENT, THAT TV WAS SOMETHING WHERE HE COULD JUST, AND IF YOU WATCH THAT DOCUMENTARY, IT IS PHENOMENAL.

IS BASICALLY LONG CLIPS OF McCARTHY WITHOUT MUCH COMMENTARY FROM MURROW.

ESSENTIALLY, MURROW IS SAYING, YOU SEE, THIS IS THE GUY, THIS IS THE PERSON WHO HAS US ALL IN THRALL AND FEAR.

DOESN'T HE LOOK LIKE A BULLY?

AND IT WORKED.

SO, THE ANALOGY TODAY IS NOT ONE TO ONE.

BUT I THINK WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT IF SOMEONE IS GOING TO COME ALONG AND BE THAT EDWARD R MURROW, IT WILL BE SOMEONE WHO FRONTALLY BUT MENTALLY UNDERSTANDS THE ECOSYSTEM OF TODAY.

MAYBE IT IS NOT A JOURNALIST.

MAYBE IT IS AN INFLUENCER OR A POLITICIAN.

MAYBE IT IS JUST SOMEONE WHO HAS SOMETHING TO SAY AND IT GOES VIRAL.

IT IS HARD TO KNOW.

BUT I THINK THAT IS WHAT IT IS GOING TO BE.

IT WILL BE SOMEONE WHO GETS THE MOMENT IN A WAY THAT NOBODY ELSE DOES.

>> SEEING WHAT YOU ARE SEEING NOW, AND RESEARCHING WHAT YOU HAVE RESEARCHED, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC, PESSIMISTIC, KIND OF, WHERE ARE YOU ON SEEING PARTS OF HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF?

>> I MEAN, I CAN LOOK BACK OPTIMISTICALLY AND SAY, I SEE ALL THESE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THEN AND NOW.

AND I CAN ALSO SAY, WELL, IT ENDED.

AND IT ENDED IN PART BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DECIDED IN A VERY, I MEAN, THAT IS REDUCTIVE, BUT EVENTUALLY, WE CAME TO OUR SENSES AND WE SAID THAT CIVIL LIBERTY ABUSES ARE RIDICULOUS, THERE IS NO COMMUNIST THREAT.

AND YOU CAN SEE POINT IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHERE THIS HAS HAPPENED.

AND SO ONE COULD SAY, WELL, THE PRESENT MOMENT WILL CHILL OUT.

DAMAGE WILL BE DONE, BUT WE WILL GET OVER IT.

THIS WAS HARRY TRUMAN AND DWIGHT EISENHOWER'S FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF, THAT AMERICANS ARE PRAGMATIC, THEY ARE NOT GIVEN TO DEMAGOGUES FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

SO I CAN SAY THAT OSTOMY SICKLY.

--OPTIMISTICALLY.

PESSIMISTICALLY, I CAN LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFERENCES IN BETWEEN.

PEOPLE LOOK FOR PARALLELS, BUT THEY ALSO NEED TO LOOK FOR TODAY IS DIFFERENT THAN THINGS WE HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THE PAST.

I HOPE PEOPLE WHO READ THE BOOK WILL GO THROUGH IT AND SAY, OH, BUT NOW, IT IS LIKE THIS.

NOW THE CHALLENGE TO THE LEGAL COMMUNITY IS COMING FROM THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF.

AND THAT CHANGES THE GAME.

AND THAT LEAVES ME LESS OPTIMISTIC.

SIMPLY BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW HOW THIS ENDS.

AND I DO NOT KNOW IF THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE WILL EVEN MATTER WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED RED SCARE, BLACKLIST, McCARTHYISM AND THE MAKING OF MODERN AMERICA.

AUTHOR CLAY RISEN.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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