JOHN YANG: Tonight on PBS News Weekend,# as the Justice Department releases more## material on Jeffrey Epstein, critics# complained about heavy redactions.

Then,## how companies may be using AI to sift through your# personal data online to set individualized prices.

And a conversation with world renowned animal# scientist and autism advocate Temple Grandin,## whose portrait is now in the# National Portrait Gallery.

TEMPLE GRANDIN, Professor of Animal Science,# Colorado State University: Like, you got to## be kidding.

I think it's like.. get the call from Sweden, they just can't# believe it.

I almost couldn't believe it.

(BREAK) JOHN YANG:## Good evening.

I'm Jo.. more heavily redacted pages of material# it had gathered on convicted sex offender## Jeffrey Epstein.

Still, what's been# made public so far falls well short## of the full disclosure required by# the law Congress passed last month.

These new releases come in addition# to the thousands of pages of photos,## correspondence and other material# released on Friday afternoon.

And## the Justice Department says there will# be much more to come in the coming weeks.

Among the latest batch, released around# midnight, is a phone message slip that reads,## she has females for Mr.

J.E.

Jeff Mason is a# White House correspondent for Reuters.

Jeff,## these new files, the files even# that were released yesterday,## tell us a lot about more detail about# Jeffrey Epstein.

But does it tell us## anything about his relationship with# Donald Trump?

With President Trump.

JEFF MASON, White House Correspondent,# Reuters: Very little.

And that's one## thing that people were maybe anticipating# getting more informa.. have some mentions of Trump and# some conversations, but no photos.

One of the pieces of evidence that# people were expecting was not in## the release.

And in general, the# files were focused on other people## in Jeffrey Epstein's orbit and not the# current president of the United States.

JOHN YANG: Even with that, this is now going to# be spread out over several weeks.

It's not going## to be a one day story, one day headline.

Does the# White House have a strategy to deal with that?

JEFF MASON: Well, their strategy so far has# been largely to say, A, that they are being## very transparent by taking or taking doing# this document release and following the law.## A statement from a White House spokeswoman# yesterday pretty much said just that and## accused Democrats of not answering questions# about their connections with Jeffrey Epstein.

I think broadly, the White House would be# happy for this whole issue to go away.

And## that is evidenced by the fact that President# Trump spent months trying to prevent these## documents from coming out.

That led to# a lot of discord within his MAGA base## and led to some divisions within Congress# about amongst Republicans.

In the end,## they ended up passing this law# and the president signed it.

But some Democrats and in fact, at# least one Republican are saying that## the administration did not follow the# law with its limited release on Friday.

JOHN YANG: Well, one of those# Republicans is the co-sponsor,## Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky.# He tweeted today that the release grossly## fails to comply with the law.

What can they# do?

Can they go to court and sue over this?

JEFF MASON: Well, that's a good question.

I# don't know if that's something that they're## thinking of doing.

Certainly I do know, because# this is what the Justice Department has said,## is that they're planning to release more,# but they are saying that there are so many## things that have to go through that they just# couldn't basically do it all in one batch,## but that there will be multiple# additional batches coming.

But as you say, even the co-sponsor# of the bill on the Republican side,## Congressman Massie, is upset about that.

JOHN YANG: And also, these documents# are so heavily redacted.

There are## some pages that are just totally# black from being blacked out,## inked out.

Is anybody talking about# that or complaining about that?

JEFF MASON: Yes, there are concerns about that.# I think in one case, there were 100 pages of## grand jury testimony that were redacted.# Now, the law allows the Justice Department## to release some of the files with redactions# in specific instances with regard to victims## of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes, with regard# to abuse.

But the amount of the redactions## surprised people who are expecting to get# more information than they felt they received.

JOHN YANG: And the law actually# says they can't redact to protect## the reputation of anybody.

Anybody.

Do# we have any idea when these additional## files are going to be released in the future?

JEFF MASON: All we know is that they'll be coming## out in batches in the coming weeks.

So# I would expect that journalists like## ourselves will be watching this story over# the holidays and probably well past that.

And some of the questions that people were hoping## to get answered in this first batch are# the ones that will continue to be asked## in terms of connections that other# people had and knowledge that other## people had of Jeffrey Epstein and his crimes.

JOHN YANG: You mentioned this split in the MAGA## base and it spread to the House Republicans.

Does# any of this threaten support for President Trump?

JEFF MASON: Well, I mean, exhibit A of that# is the rift now between President Trump and## Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who threw# her support behind this legislation and behind## additional transparency for the Epstein files# that led to this major break with the president,## with whom she had a close relationship.# And the two of them have really been MAGA,## you know, very connected in the MAGA# base and supported by the MAGA base.

So to your question, will there be more?

It's# hard to say, but certainly Congresswoman Greene## has suggested that there are more divisions# coming or more breakaways coming from within## the base and within the Republican Party over# multiple things.

But certainly a lot of it seems## to have been triggered by this.

JOHN YANG: Jeff Mason of Reuters,## thank you very much.

JEFF MASON: My pleasure.

JOHN YANG: In the day's other## headlines, Russia struck Odessa's port# facilities in southern Ukraine overnight.## Eight people were killed and 27 injured.

It# comes after Moscow threatened to cut Ukraine## off in the Black Sea.

Russia also says# it's taken control of two more Ukrainian## villages in the Donetsk and Sumy regions,# despite U.S.

efforts to get a ceasefire## agreement the Ukrainian soldier fighting# in Donetsk said it would be meaningless.

HRUBYI, Ukrainian Artilleryman (through# translator): I don't believe in a ceasefire.## It's all just empty talk.

Why?

Because Putin# will gather more forces, regroup and .. JOHN YANG: A Russian envoy arrived in Miami# today for talks on a U.S.

plan to end the## war.

Yesterday, Ukrainian negotiators began# separate talks with U.S.

officials in Miami.

The Israeli army struck a school in Gaza City# that was sheltering displaced people.

The dead## and wounded were taken to Al Shifa Hospital.# Among the seven killed were six members of Nafez## al Nassr's family who were asleep.

He said he# was celebrating a wedding in a nearby classroom.

NAFEZ AL-NATHR (through translator):# We dispersed in panic, looking for## our loved ones, and we saw body# parts everywhere.

The children,## the elderly, the young women, body parts# everywhere.

The joy stopped immediately.

JOHN YANG: The Israeli military told PBS News# that had been targeting a number of suspicious## individuals, but is aware of a claim of civilian# casualties and that the details are under review.## Hamas called it a brutal crime and yet# another violation of the cease fire agreement.

U.S.

Central Command has released video# of Friday's U.S.

strikes on more than## 70 targets in Syria said to be Islamic# State fighters and weapons.

It was the## retaliation that President Trump had# promised after an ambush attack last## week killed two U.S.

troops and# a civilian American interpreter.

The Jordanian air force confirmed# that it joined the U.S.

operation## to prevent extremist groups from# threatening regional security.

And a paraplegic engineer from Germany has# become the first person who uses a wheelchair## to go to space.

It was a dream come true for# Michaela Benthouse.

She blasted off aboard a## Blue Origin capsule along with five other space# tourists.

The 10 minute suborbital space flight## was intended to let the passengers experience# a few minutes of weightlessness in outer space.

Still to come on PBS News Weekend, how online# retailers use AI to adjust prices based on what## they think you're willing to pay.

And# celebrating the life of Temple Grandin,## the renowned animal scientist and# advocate for people with autism.

(BREAK) JOHN YANG: Today is Super Saturday, the last# Saturday before Christmas.

It's predicted to## be the second busiest shopping day of the year.

If# you're going online to buy some last minute gifts,## there's a chance the price you'll pay# will be influenced by what's known as## surveillance pricing.

That's the practice# of some retailers to use the power of AI to## sift all sorts of personal data center# to set individualized prices online.

Things like your age, gender, geographic# location and even browsing history could## change the price you pay.

Ali# Rogan spoke with Jay Stanley,## senior policy analyst for the Speech# Privacy and Technology Project at the ACLU.

ALI ROGIN: Thank you so much for joining us.

So# what is surveillance pricing and how does it work?

JAY STANLEY, Senior Policy Analyst, ACLU:# Surveillance pricing is basically when## companies gather a huge amount of data# about they're individual customers.

And## we're living in an era where more data is# being collected about us than ever before.## Companies take that data and they use# it to try to figure out basically how## to wring more money out of you# when you buy things from them.

What is your pain point?

What are you willing to# pay, questions like that.

And there's a widespread## experimentation happening with that kind of# pricing in a number of business sectors today.

ALI ROGIN: So what are some examples of# that?

How are these companies using the## massive amounts of data that exist# about all of us online to give us## these I've heard it described# as like personalized pricing?

JAY STANLEY: I mean, right off the bat, there's# a lot we don't know because, number one, they're## going to claim trade secrets.

Number two, they're# using AI, which is very opaque in the first## place.

Even the businesses may not understand# what the logic of the AI they're using is.

But this first came into public attention# when the president of Delta Airlines,## speaking to investors, said that they were# planning on using AI to set an increasing## proportion of their prices, their airline# prices, and that they would use personal## information about people to do so.

That created# a bit of an uproar in Congress and elsewhere,## and Delta backed off and said, no,# no, we're not going to do this.

But it really put the issue which# has been out there for, you know, 10,## 15 years on a low key level, really# put it into the headlines recently.## And so we're seeing attention by# Congress, by state legislatures,## by the Federal Trade Commission and others.# There was a recent report that Instacart has## been doing differential pricing.

A consumer group# did a test and they found that 75 percent of the## products instacart were getting set with# different prices with different people,## with some of the prices 23 percent higher# than for some people, than for others.

The Wall Street Journal has reported that# retailers like Home Depot were setting## different prices for different customers,# with customers in affluent areas actually## getting charged less.

I think that there's# a lot we don't know about what's happening,## but it's definitely going on.

ALI ROGIN: What is the difference## between this type of surveillance# pricing and some other examples## and types of differential pricing that we've# seen out there already, like dynamic pricing?

JAY STANLEY: I think that the core element# of surveillance pricing or personalized## pricing is that it's based on data they have# about you.

It's different from, you know,## charging more for an umbrella when it's raining.# It's different from Uber charging different## prices at different times of day depending# on the amount of demand for their cars.

Although there have been allegations that Uber,## for example, charges more to people whose# battery's about to die and things like that## would be personalized pricing.

Uber has denied# that.

There can be very complex and sometimes## subtle differences among the different types# of pricing and that can make it complicated.

But at the end of the day, they have a lot# more information about the way the world works,## about how different people react to# different pricing, different than any## individual does.

And they are seeking to use# that advantage information against individuals.

ALI ROGIN: But all of this is legal,# right?

And the corollary question to## that is what regulations exist or should exist# to put some guardrails around this practice?

JAY STANLEY: It's not totally clear that it's# legal.

It's a bit of a legal gray area.

There are,## for example, privacy laws, state privacy laws such## as California's that may have things to# say about this and the way data is used.

There are civil rights laws that have to# do with discrimination based on anything## based on ethnicity, religion, age,# gender, disability status could get## a company in hot water if what they're# doing starts to implicate those things.

There are state consumer laws, and then# there's the Federal Trade Commission,## which has a charge to go after deceptive# and unfair trade practices.

And there could## be claims that some of these# fall under that.

And in fact,## the FTC has been investigating this.

They# did investigation a report last January,## and there's a Reuters report that they're looking# at it again under the current administration.

So if you're a business that are doing this,# you are not necessarily on solid legal ground.

ALI ROGIN: Is there anything that consumers can do## to protect themselves from the possibility# of being targeted with surveillance pricing?

JAY STANLEY: It's difficult.

I mean, at the end of# the day, a lot of these are bigger than any one of## us.

They're social questions, for example.

I mean,# one of the big problems here is that so much data## about us is being collected and flowing to the# companies that give them advantages over us.

And that's because Congress hasn't failed# to pass an overarching privacy law,## as almost all the other sort of advanced# industrial countries have done.

That would## cut off the flow of data at the source# that is fueling this kind of strategy.

But certainly you can do your best to hide your## identity when you're searching for prices.

You# can do your best to protect your privacy and be## aware of it and check and see whether people# you know are getting charged the same price.

ALI ROGIN: Jay Stanley with# the ACLU, thank you so much.

JAY STANLEY: Thank you.

JOHN YANG: Earlier this month, four new# portraits went on view at the Smithsonian## National Portrait gallery in Washington, D.C.# they're this year's recipients of the Portrait## of America Award for their transformative# contributions to American history and culture.

One of them is Temple Grandin.

She's not only# transformed animal welfare around the world,## she's also changing the public perception of# people with autism.

This weekend's Spotlight is## part of our ongoing coverage of the intersection# of arts and Health, part of our canvas series.

DAVID LENZ, Artist: She's a# giant.

I mean, she is a legend.

JOHN YANG (voice-over): Artist David Lenz# painted the portrait of Temple Grandin.

DAVID LENZ: I wanted people to come# into the museum and see a beautiful## portrait of a person who's done amazing# work, who also happens to have autism.

JOHN YANG (voice-over): It depicts# Grandin wearing her trademark outfit,## an embroidered shirt and bolo tie.

And of course,# she's on a cattle farm surrounded by livestock.

DAVID LENZ: They have very beautiful# eyes.

It's easy to see that these are## warm blooded feeling animals that# are worthy of our humane treatment.

JOHN YANG (voice-over): The humane treatment# of livestock has been Grandin's life's work.## As a child, she didn't speak until she was# nearly four.

The doctors who diagnosed her## with autism recommended putting her# in an institution.

Her mother refused.

Now Grandin considers her unique# mind her greatest strength.## Her perspective was key to her# groundbreaking redesign of cattle## handling facilities to eliminate things# that could frighten or unnerve livestock.

Today, her principles guide the way nearly# half of cattle in North America are handled.## She's also helped ease anxiety for people with# autism.

As a teenager, she designed a squeeze## machine to gently apply a calming pressure like# a giant hug.

She based it on a device she saw## on a cattle farm to hold livestock in place# for vaccinations, health checks and the like.

TEMPLE GRANDIN: When you walk back by# him, you gotta do kind of a quick motion.

JOHN YANG (voice-over): Grandin# has a PhD in animal science and## is a professor at Colorado State University.

TEMPLE GRANDIN: And who wants to let this one out?

JOHN YANG (voice-over): She was the# subject of an award winning HBO movie.

WOMAN: I could see the world in a new way.

I# could see details that other people were blind to.

JOHN YANG (voice-over): and was on Time's# list of the 100 people who most affect our## world.

And she's written more than a dozen# books.

Her talks and book signings draw big## crowds.

She says her story demonstrates# the importance of having different kinds## of thinkers.

A message highlighted# by the presence of her portrait in## the National Portrait Gallery.

It will# be on view there until next November.

JOHN YANG: Earlier, I sat# down with Temple Grandin.## I asked her what she thought of her portrait.

TEMPLE GRANDIN: I think it's absolutely# gorgeous.

I was so happy when I first saw## it this beautiful.

I kind of like# the kind of misty rainbow in it,## really like that.

Our experiment# station cattle look just great in that.

JOHN YANG: How did it feel when they told you were# going to go into the National Portrait Gallery?

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Like, you got to be kidding.

I# think it's like some of the Nobel Prize winners,## they can -- when they get the call from Sweden,## they just can't believe it.

I almost couldn't# believe it going, you got to.. JOHN YANG: Now explain why there# are cattle in this portrait.

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Well, cattle is what I have# worked with.

I've worked on designing facilities## for cattle.

I've worked on developing animal# welfare guidelines, teaching people in the## industry how to use them.

I started out in# the feed yards in Arizona back in the early## seventies.

Handling of cattle was dreadful,# and I worked on designing better facilities.

I also wrote a lot of articles just on how to# on cattle behavior, how to design things.

I saw## that cattle handling as something you could# fix.

Now, today, cattle handling is greatly,## greatly improved.

The livestock associations# have training materials.

You have to have both## good equipment and.

And the management.

Good# equipment makes good handling easier.

And you## have top management in a place that insists# on handling cattle and other animals right.

Large customers like McDonald's and other large# customers are auditing animal welfare.

Handling## has really improved, and that's something I'm very# proud of, the improvements I've seen in that.

JOHN YANG: I know you don't want to be known# specifically or mostly for being someone with## autism, but I've also heard you say that it helped# you in your work with cattle and livestock.

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Well, I'm an extreme# object visualizer.

Everything I think## about is a picture.

So the very first work# I did with cattle is I got down in a chute## to see what cattle were seeing.

They'd stop# at a shadow, they'd stop at a reflection,## they'd stop at a pickup park next to the facility.# And visual distractions affected their behavior.

Now, at the time that I did this, in my 20s,# I thought everybody was a visual thinker.

And## it was kind of shocked to me when I found# out that they weren't.

In my latest book,## Visual Thinking, I discussed the research on# object visualizers.

Like me, then you have## more mathematical pattern thinkers then you have# word thinkers.

Problem with us object visualizers## is we can't do higher math.

But I worked# with people that were undiagnosed autistic.

They had big machine and welding shops, and they# were inventing and patenting mechanical devices.## And I'm very concerned that these people are# getting screened out of our educational system.

JOHN YANG: In this case, different is a strength.

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Yes.

JOHN YANG: How does that play into how# you ta.. how you talk to families who# may have children with autism?

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Well, autism goes all the way# from Einstein and Bill Gates to somebody that## never learns to speak.

I learned to speak# by age 4.

I was good at art.

My ability in## art was always encouraged.

Object visualizers are# good at art, mechanical animals, and photography.## So things that object visualizers are good at.# Terrible at abstract math.

Can't remember it.

But I worked with all these shop people# that had built and installed equipment## for me.

They couldn't do algebra, and they're# not getting replaced.

Who do you want fixing## the hydraulics that steers your airplane or# my airplane?

I want that object visualizer.## I don't care about the algebra, but I# want the steering to work on that plane.

JOHN YANG: Do you think the# fact that there is so much## discussion about autism, is that a good thing?

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Well, there's a lot# of things that are good.

I'm a big## proponent of developing strengths because you# can get an autistic object visualizer like me,## non-mathematician or you can get a mathematician,# an extreme mathematician.

And those kids are not## being developed.

I've been getting feedback# from teachers that they make them just do## the same boring little math in fourth# grade.

They get bored and then they## turn into behavior problems when they need# to be challenged with more advanced math.

And you want to take the strength and# build on it.

If the autistic person## is an extreme mathematician,# let's develop that they're an## extreme object visualizer.

I'm going# to really push towards the mechanical.

JOHN YANG: families with children who# are diagnosed with autism.

They may## think it's a horrible thing,# but what do you tell them?

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Well, when a child is like# under age five, I looked very severe when## I was two and a half.

I was very lucky to# get into very good early education.

This is## essential.

I was taught language.

I was# taught the ability to wait and take turns## at games and taught basic skills like# getting dressed, brushing my teeth,## basic skills.

And this early education is# really, really important.

I'm seeing too## many kids put on two year wait lists.

We when# they're three years old.

That is really bad.

And the other thing, mother had high expectations# with some accommodations.

When I was five,## I remember going on a ferry boat, flinging myself# on the floor, screaming when the horn blew.

Well,## we're going to go on that ferry but you can# ride in the cabin underneath away from the horn.# Accommodation was made but we are going to go# on that ferry.

That's the high expectation.

JOHN YANG: Have you thought about what you,## how you want like to be remembered,# what you want .. TEMPLE GRANDIN: Right now one of the big things# I've been working on is recognizing the importance## of object visualizers.

And I'm worried about# them getting screened out.

Okay.

I went up## to community college and they're doing a two year# factory maintenance degree and requiring calculus## and algebra.

Well, you're going to screen out the# very best mechanic for keeping a factory running.

JOHN YANG: So is being a# visual thinker your superpower?

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Yes, being a visual thinker.# You say the extreme visual thinkers.

And I've## talked to a lot of photographers too.

Very# good photographers can't do higher math,## drawn to photography, they can excel# in that.

Very good with animals because## animals are sensory based thinkers, but# also very good with mechanical things.

I tell business people, plain# and simple, we need the skills## and the one thing where AI is not going to# replace who's going to fix an elevator or## make sure the waterworks work or make# sure the hydraulics works on a plane.

I just talked to a science teacher and her dad# was cooking.

Airplane mechanic couldn't do any,## any higher math.

He fixed some hydraulic problem# on a Boeing airplane and Boeing put it in every## one of their airplanes because he could just see# how the hydraulics works.

We need these thinkers.

Now where we need our mathematical# engineers.

Let's take something## like a spaceship.

The mathematician# tells the thruster when to thrust,## but the visual thinker has to make# sure it's put together properly.

You see, there's two parts of engineering here,## the mathematical part and what I call the clever# engineers that often don't get enough credit.

JOHN YANG: Temple Grandin, thank you very much.

TEMPLE GRANDIN: Thank you for having me.

JOHN YANG: And that is PBS News Weekend# for this Saturday.

I'm John Yang.

For## all of my colleagues, thanks for# joining us.

See you tomorrow.