>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP .

>> YOU HAVE TO SHOW A CERTAIN FLEXIBILITY.

>> CONFUSION OVER TRUMP'S TARIFFS.

WHEN WILL IT END?

TO REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT RESIDENTS GIVE ME THEIR TAKE.

THEN -- >>> OUR INTENTION IS A FAIR AND HONORABLE AGREEMENT WITH A POSITION OF QUALITY.

>> IS A NEW IRAN DEAL ON THE CARDS?

I ASKED FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT ADVISOR NASSER ABOUT HIGH LEVEL TALKS IN IRAN.

>>> PLUS, EL SALVADOR'S PRESIDENT VISITS THE WHITE HOUSE.

WE GET THE LATEST ON THAT ALLIANCE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> EASY SOLUTION TO THE PUBLIC AT IT PROBLEM.

>> CANISTER AND TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN WHY HE IS CONCERNED THAT HIS OWN DEFINITION OF ANTI- SEMITISM IS BEING USED TO STOP SPEECH.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, AGAINST AN SEMITISM, FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J.

PLUS, FILM AND M .

D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, J. MELVIN, THE CHARLES ROSENBLUM FUND, PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY, BARBARA HOPE LOKKEBERG, JEFFREY KATZ, BETH ROGERS AND CONDITIONS TO YOUR YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IF YOU THOUGHT THE WEEKEND MIGHT STUDY PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S TARIFF ROLLER COASTER CLINIC AGAIN.

IN THE HOURS BETWEEN FRIDAY AND SUNDAY, THE WHITE HOUSE ANNOUNCED EXCEPTIONS ON SOME CHINESE TECH PRODUCTS.

ONLY FOR COMMERCE SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK TO SAY THE EXEMPTIONS ARE JUST TEMPORARY AND THAT IMPORTED ELECTRONICS WILL SOON FACE OTHER LEVIES.

NOW, THE PRESIDENT SAYS HE ANNOUNCED THAT FRIDAY DOES NOT AMOUNT TO A TARIFF EXEMPTION, AND THE ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS INSIST THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN.

>> OUR MEDICINES AND OUR SEMI CONDUCTORS NEED TO BE BUILT IN AMERICA.

DONALD TRUMP IS ON IT, POURING THAT OUT.

YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND, THESE ARE INCLUDED IN THE SEMI CONDUCTOR TARIFFS COMING IN THE PHARMACEUTICALS ARE COMING.

THOSE TO AREAS ARE COMING IN THE NEXT MONTH OR TO.

THIS IS NOT LIKE A PERMANENT SORT OF EXEMPTION.

HE IS JUST CLARIFYING THAT THESE ARE NOT AVAILABLE TO BE NEGOTIATED AWAY BY COUNTRIES .

>> ALMOST A TO-WORLD SYSTEM, A PROCESS ABOUT CHINA , AND THAT IS VERY, VERY AMAZING , IF AT ALL, AND THEN THE PROCESS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE.

THE PROCESS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE IS ORDERLY, CLEAR, PEOPLE ARE COMING TO TOWN WITH GREAT, GREAT OFFERS.

>> SO, CAN THOSE DEALS BE REACHED, INCLUDING WITH BEIJING , AND AT WHAT RISK TO THE ECONOMY?

HERE TO DISCUSS, FORMER ECONOMIC ADVISER TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, AND CHIEF ECONOMIST UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU.

SO, GREG, LET ME START WITH YOU.

HELP US EXPLAIN , IF YOU CAN, WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE BACK AND FORTH, THE BIT OF REPRIEVE THAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE WHITE HOUSE ON FRIDAY, AS IT RELATES TO RECIPROCAL TARIFFS ON TECH COMPONENTS, ONLY TO HAVE THAT WALKED BACK BY SOME OF THE PRESIDENT'S TOP OFFICIALS, AND HE SEEMINGLY CONFIRMED THAT IN THE OVAL OFFICE, JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO, DESCRIBING HIMSELF AS A FLEXIBLE PERSON.

>> I THINK THE ONLY THING THAT WE CAN BE CERTAIN ABOUT RIGHT NOW IS THAT IT IS VERY UNCERTAIN , AND UNCERTAINTY IS NOT GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE A CEO THINKING ABOUT BUILDING A FACTORY SOMEWHERE, EITHER HERE OR ABROAD, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE IS EVEN GOING TO BE, YOU'RE JUST GOING TO WAIT.WAITING MEANS THAT STUFF IS GOING TO FALL, DEMAND IS GOING TO FALL, UNEMPLOYMENT IS GOING TO RISE.

THE UNCERTAINTY IS CERTAINLY BAD FOR THE ECONOMY.

THE TARIFF POSSIBLY -- ANYBODY'S GUESS IS WHERE IT WILL BE.

MY ONLY TAKE, WHAT HE ORIGINALLY PROPOSED WAS ECONOMIC MALPRACTICE ON A GRAND SCALE, THE STOCK MARKET QUICKLY TOLD HIM THAT, AND HE QUICKLY RETREATED.

WHERE IT IS GOING TO END UP IS HARD TO SAY AT THIS POINT.

>> THAT SAYS LITTLE, AGAIN, GREG, AS YOU POINT OUT, TO ADDRESS ALL OF THE UNCERTAINTY AND QUESTIONS THAT ARE ASKED BY CEOs, BY CONSUMERS, BUSINESS OWNERS, LARGE AND SMALL, AND , ERNIE, IT ALSO BEGS THE QUESTION OF THE RATIONALE FOR THE TARIFFS, BECAUSE MORE ECONOMISTS SAY, THAT IF YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO REDUCE THE TRADE DEFICIT, THIS ISN'T THE BEST APPROACH.

SO, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE POLICIES TO BEGIN WITH?

>> LOOK, YOU KNOW, THERE COULD BE A CASE MADE FOR VERY NARROW TARIFFS WHEN YOU HAVE VERY SPECIFIC GOALS, ESPECIALLY NATIONAL SECURITY GOALS, OR THINGS LIKE CRITICAL INTEGRALS, BUT NOT THE SORT OF RAW TARIFFS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS ANNOUNCED, AND GREG'S POINT, CERTAINLY NOT THE CHAOTIC ROLLOUT THAT WE HAVE SEEN, BECAUSE THE CHAOTIC ROLLOUT WAS WHAT PUNCTUATES THE ECONOMIC DAMAGE THAT YOU GET .

JUST, THE DIRECT EFFECT OF THE TARIFFS IS ALREADY, YOU KNOW, COUNTING AT ROUGHLY $4700 FOR THE AVERAGE AMERICAN FAMILY.

THAT'S PER YEAR, AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, IT IS THE CHILLING EFFECT ON INVESTMENT AND CONSUMPTION THAT COMES FROM THE AS MRS. CAN'T PLAN, WHICH IS JUST GOING TO EXACERBATE THAT ECONOMIC EFFECT.

SO, IT IS NOT A RECIPE FOR AN INCREASE OF MANUFACTURING OR ANY OTHER INDUSTRY IN AMERICA.

>> AND, GREG, NORMALLY DURING THIS TYPE OF ECONOMIC TURMOIL AND INSTABILITY, FINANCIAL MARKETS SELL OFFS, IN PAST CRISES, IT WAS INVESTORS FLOCKING TO THE U.S. AS A SAFE HAVEN.

WE HAVE SORT OF SEEN THE REVERSE HERE.

WE HAVE SEEN TREASURY BONDS AND THE YIELDS HAVE ACTUALLY GONE UP, AS OPPOSED TO GOING DOWN.

WE HAVE SEEN THE U.S. DOLLAR GO DOWN AS WELL.

FROM WHAT YOU'RE HEARING, FROM WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT FOREIGN INVESTORS ARE LOSING FAITH AND TRUST IN THE U.S. FINANCIAL SYSTEM?

>> I AM VERY CONCERNED.

LOOK BACK ON THE HISTORY OF TRADE POLICY.

BIPARTISAN AFFAIR.

I THINK WE GO BACK TO NAFTA, IT WAS NEGOTIATED BY GEORGE H.W.

BUSH, PASSED UNDER BILL CLINTON.

SO, THE MOVEMENT TOWARDS FREE TRADE AND LOWER TRADE BARRIERS HAS BEEN A BIPARTISAN EFFORT THROUGHOUT THE PAST ADMINISTRATIONS.

NOW, WE ARE IN A VERY DIFFERENT SITUATION, WHERE PARTNERS LOOK AT THE U.S., WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY MAKE OF IT, WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE, HOW RELIABLE THEY ARE.

THIS FEEDS INTO THE GENERAL SORT OF UNCERTAINTY ABOUT THE U.S. ROLE IN THE WORLD AFFAIRS.

WHETHER IT IS THINGS LIKE NATO OR WTO , THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

WE STILL LOOK LIKE THE RELIABLE ANCHOR IN THE WORLD ANYMORE, AND THAT WOULD BE VERY BAD IF PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN THE U.S. AS THE CENTER OF THE WORLD .

>> ERNIE, WHEN I HAVE HEARD FROM A NUMBER OF EXPERTS IS THE WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME HERE IS THAT THE U.S. DOLLAR COULD LOSE ITS RESERVE CURRENCY STATUS.HOW LIKELY IS THAT TO HAPPEN IN YOUR VIEW, AND CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY THAT WOULD BE SO CATACLYSMIC?

>> SURE.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT THAT IS LIKELY AT THIS POINT.

LOOK, THERE ARE ALWAYS PREDICTIONS IN LOTS OF CONTEXTS THAT THE UNITED STATES DOLLAR IS GOING TO LOSE ITS RESERVE STATUS, AND THEY ARE ALWAYS PROVEN WRONG, SO, I DON'T WANT TO JUMP THE GUN AND SAY THAT THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS CASE, BUT I AGREE WITH GREG, THE GYRATIONS IN THE BOND MARKET THAT WE HAVE SEEN RECENTLY ARE THE MOST CONCERNING MARKET REACTION SO FAR, EVEN MORE CONCERNING THAN THE STOCK MARKET REACTIONS, AND THAT IS BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES ' SAFE HARBOR STATUS IS CENTRAL TO THE WORLD NO FINANCIAL SYSTEM .

IT BENEFITS US IN A LOT OF WAYS.

OUR INTEREST RATES LOAD, IT ALLOWS US TO RUN, AMONG OTHER THINGS, HIGH BENEFITS.

PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, OUR DEFICITS ARE TOO HIGH AS A RESULT OF THAT, BUT LOOK, IT GIVES US THAT ABILITY TO DO AMERICAN ASSETS LIKE TREASURIES ARE THE CORNERSTONE OF SAFE ASSETS FOR INVESTMENT FUNDS AROUND THE WORLD .

SO, THE UNITED STATES WOULD SUDDENLY USE THAT --LOSE THAT SAFE HARBOR STATUS, IF THE DOLLAR WERE TO LOSE THAT RESERVE STATUS, AMONG THEM, IT WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC FOR THE WORLD FINANCIAL SYSTEM, AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, WITH AMERICAN YIELDS GOING UP AND THE AMERICAN DOLLAR LOSING VALUE, WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU EXPECT TO SEE IN A SAFE HAVEN COUNTRY LIKE THE UNITED STATES, IS INCREDIBLY CONCERNING.

>> THIS FOCUS ON BRINGING BACK MANUFACTURING JOBS HAS RAISED A DEBATE AS TO WHETHER THIS SHOULD BE EVEN SOMETHING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THAT THE PRESIDENT, SHOULD BE WANTING AT THIS POINT, AND GREG, YOU NOTE THIS AS WELL, OVER THE DECADES, WE HAVE SEEN THE DECLINE IN MANUFACTURING JOBS IN THE COUNTRY WHILE THE ECONOMY HAS CONTINUED TO GROW, AND FAR AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT REPEATEDLY SAYING THAT HIS DESIRE IS TO BRING THOSE JOBS BACK TO THE UNITED STATES, AND HOW REALISTIC DO YOU THINK THAT ACTUALLY IS?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT IS REALISTIC AT ALL.

IF YOU LOOK AT MANUFACTURING EMPLOYMENT AS A PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL EMPLOYMENT, IT HAS BEEN DECLINING FOR MANY, MANY DECADES.

PART OF IT IS INTERNATIONAL TRADE, BUT A LARGER PART OF IT IS ACTUALLY AUTOMATION.

THE FACT WE ARE MOVING TOWARDS A SERVICE-BASED ECONOMY, SIMILAR TO WHAT HAPPENED A COUPLE OF CENTURIES AGO, WHEN MOST PEOPLE WERE FARMERS, AND WE SLOWLY MOVED AWAY FROM AGRICULTURE , AS WE SAW ADVANCES IN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTIVITY, AND PEOPLE MOVED INTO OTHER SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY.

NOW, PEOPLE ARE MOVING OUT OF THE MANUFACTURING SECTORS INTO THE SERVICES SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY.

FOR SOME REASON, SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT IS A PROBLEM SERVICES SECTOR JOBS CAN BE GREAT JOBS.

I TEACH AT HARVARD, HARVARD IS SERVICE SECTOR EMPLOYER.

YOU TEACH AT CNN, CNN IS A SERVICE SECTOR EMPLOYER.

THERE ARE GOOD JOBS AT THESE FIRMS WITH THE PRESIDENT AND THESE ORGANIZATIONS DOWN TO THE JANITORS OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS.

NO REASON AMERICANS NEED TO BE IN MANUFACTURING FOR US TO BE PROSPEROUS.

>> ALSO, THAT BEGS THE QUESTION, WHAT HAPPENS IF SOME OF OUR ALLIES OR ADVERSARY DECIDED TO RETALIATE BY ALSO TERRIFYING THESE SERVICE SECTOR INDUSTRIES AS WELL?

RIGHT NOW, THAT IS THEIR FOCUS, ON GOODS, BUT YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE SAID, NOTHING IS OFF THE TABLE AT THIS POINT.

ERNIE, I WANT TO BRING UP SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE RESEARCHED.

WAS EXCITED WHEN I INTERVIEWED JANET YELLEN LAST WEEK, THE FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY AND FED CHAIR, WHICH HE SAID THAT THESE POLICIES, IF ENACTED, WOULD COST THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD ABOUT $4000 A YEAR .

WE JUST HEARD FROM GREG, TALK ABOUT FARMING --THERE IS AN INDUSTRY THAT IS STILL QUITE ABUNDANT HERE, IN THE UNITED STATES.

I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FROM ABOUT THE IMPACT THIS COULD HAVE ON THEIR LIVELIHOOD.

>> AS A SOYBEAN FARMER, WE ARE DEPENDENT ON TRADE , RIGHT AT 50% OF THE SOYBEANS ARE USED IN THE UNITED STATES ARE EXPORTED CHINA TAKES MORE OF OUR SOYBEANS THAN ALL OTHER FOREIGN CUSTOMERS COMBINED, SO, THEY'RE A MAJOR PART OF OUR MARKET, AND THIS TRADE WAR IS VERY CONCERNING TO US RIGHT NOW WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR LIVELIHOODS ARE AT STAKE.

>> JOBS AT STAKE, THESE TARIFFS WILL COST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS FOR THE AVERAGE U.S. HOUSEHOLD OR DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HOW MUCH PAIN THIS ADMINISTRATION IS WILLING TO ENACT WHAT THEY SAY WILL ULTIMATELY BE A BOOMING ECONOMY ONCE AGAIN?

>> I MEAN, LOOK, WE'LL HAVE TO SEE.

I THINK THE ENDEMIC IS INSTRUCTIVE HERE, THAT EVEN THE REST OF THE ECONOMY IS DOING WELL, SAY, THE LABOR MARKET IS DOING WELL, WE KNOW, FROM THE PANDEMIC EXPERIENCE, THAT IF PRICES ARE HIGH AND COST OF LIVING IS HIGH, THAT CONSUMERS WILL BE CONCERNED THAT THERE MIGHT BE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES TO THAT.

WE SAW THAT WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN AND VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS IN THE LAST ELECTION.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN THAT SENSE, WE MIGHT SEE THE SAME SORT OF THREAT WORK ITS WAY THROUGH THE TARIFF CONVERSATION, AND LIKE ALL ECONOMIC POLICIES , TARIFFS HAVE TRADE-OFFS.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN ARGUING IN OUR LAWS IS NOT THAT THERE ARE NO WINNERS WHATSOEVER, THAT THERE IS NO FACTORY ANYWHERE IN AMERICA THAT DOESN'T HIRE A WORKER OR DOESN'T SEE A RAISE BECAUSE OF TARIFFS AS A WORKER, WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS THAT, WHEN YOU LAY THE POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES FOR EVERY FACTORY THAT HIRES UP, THERE ARE MORE FACTORIES THAT LAY OFF WORKERS, RIGHT, BECAUSE COSTS INCREASE FOR THEIR INPUTS, BECAUSE THEY ARE RETALIATED AGAINST BY OTHER COUNTRIES, OR BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE VALUE OF THE DOLLAR GOES UP BECAUSE WE HAVE THE TARIFFS MAKING OUR EXPORTS LESS COMPETITIVE OVERSEAS, AND YEAH , YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THE AVERAGE ACROSS ALL HOUSEHOLD IS A COST OF $4700 PER FAMILY PER YEAR AS A RESULT OF THESE TARIFFS, IS IT REALLY WORTH THE SORT OF SMATTERING OR LIMITED AMOUNT OF BENEFITS YOU GET IN REMOTE AREAS?

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT SOME OF THE GOALS HERE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS RAISING OUR WORTHWHILE GOALS.

THINK ABOUT , ESPECIALLY FOCUSING ON AREAS IN THE HEARTLAND THAT HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND, BUT THIS IS WAY TOO BLUNT AN INSTRUMENT TO ADDRESS THOSE PROBLEMS.

>> EVEN GOLDMAN SACHS WAS EXCITING ACADEMIC STUDIES FOR THE PROS AND CONS FOR THE LABOR MARKET FOR THESE TARIFFS.

THEY SAY, THEIR CONCLUSION IS THEY HAVE A NET NEGATIVE EFFECT FOR 100,000 INFECTION JOBS THAT CAN BE BROUGHT IN, 1/2 1 MILLION JOBS COULD BE LOST, BIGGER PICTURE.

I WANT TO ASK, NORMALLY DURING CONVERSATIONS WITH SOMEONE WHO HAVE SERVED IN A DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT, WE WOULD HAVE A LOT MORE DISAGREEMENT HERE.

YOU BOTH ARE JUST NODDING YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU ARE LISTENING TO EACH OTHER.

I ASKED JANET YELLEN, NOW THAT SHE IS BACK AS A PROFESSOR, WHAT GRADE SHE COULD GIVE THIS ADMINISTRATION'S ECONOMIC POLICIES, AND SHE SAID , IT COULD NOT BE A PASSING GRADE, SHE HAS NEVER SEEN MORE OF A SELF AFFECTED WOUND BY AN ADMINISTRATION.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU QUICKLY, BOTH, A, DID YOU EVER THINK YOU WOULD AGREE ABOUT ECONOMIC POLICY OVER A 12-MINUTE INTERVIEW, AND ALSO, GIVEN YOUR TIME AND EXPERIENCE WORKING IN ADMINISTRATIONS ON ECONOMIC POLICY, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING HANDLED IN SUCH A DIZZYING SORT OF SLOPPY, AT TIMES , AND IN COHERENT MANNER?

LET ME START WITH YOU, GREG .

>> NO.

I REALLY HAVEN'T.

THAT UNITE ECONOMISTS, AND THE BELIEF THAT AN OPEN INTERNATIONAL TRADING SYSTEM IS GOOD FOR BOTH SIDES OF THE TRANSACTION IS ONE OF THEM.

I THINK YOU SEE THE UNIFICATION OF ECONOMISTS LINING UP OPPOSED TO WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO.

>> ERNIE, AGAIN, HE WAS NODDING.

YOU SHOULD KNOW, GREG, AS YOU WERE SPEAKING, ONCE AGAIN.

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I COMPLETELY AGREE.

I WILL DRAW ON ACTUAL EXPERIENCE HERE.

WE DISCUSSED CHANGES TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM TARIFFS WHEN I SERVED IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND ULTIMATELY, THE POLICY CAME OUT OF THAT --NOT ALL ON THE STREET --I WILL TELL YOU, INTERNALLY, NUMBER ONE, THERE WAS A VERY ROBUST DEBATE INTERNALLY, AND THE ADMINISTRATION HEARD FROM LOTS OF DIFFERENT VIEWPOINTS, LOTS OF DIFFERENT ECONOMISTS, LOTS OF DIFFERENT NONECONOMISTS ON THIS, AND ALSO, IT WAS JUST INCREDIBLY WELL-CONSIDERED AND PLANNED OUT WHAT WE WERE GOING TO DO.

SO, AGREE WITH WHATEVER THE FINAL POLICY WAS FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OR NOT, WE MADE SURE THAT OUR POLICY WAS SET AND PLANNED BEFORE WE ANNOUNCED IT.

THIS IS COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE.

RIGHT?

IT IS LIKE THEY ARE MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG, AND PRETENDING LIKE THAT WAS THE PLAN ALL ALONG.

>> LISTEN, SPEAKING OF SOMEONE WHO IS MARRIED TO AN ECONOMIST, I AM SURE HE IS HAVING FOMO RIGHT NOW FROM MISSING OUT IN THIS CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> NOW, AMERICAN AND IRANIAN OFFICIALS ARE SET TO MEET AGAIN THIS WEEKEND AFTER A FIRST ROUND OF TALKS .

THE HIGHEST LEVEL MEETINGS SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP PULLED OUT OF THE NUCLEAR AGREEMENT KNOWN AS THE ACPOA IN 2018 MEANT TO CURB IRAN'S NUCLEAR AMBITIONS.

FROM SAYING TODAY HE NEEDS TO SEE IRAN SPEED UP THE PACE OF TALKS OR FACE A HARSH RESPONSE.

>> ONLY THING IS ONE THING, THEY CAN'T HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THEY HAVE GOT TO GO FAST , BECAUSE THEY ARE FAIRLY CLOSE TO HAVING ONE, AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ONE , AND IF WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING VERY LARGE, WE WILL DO IT I'M NOT DOING IT FOR US, I AM DOING IT FOR THE WORLD.

>> SO, BUT WITH A NEW DEAL LOOK LIKE, AND WHAT ARE THE LIKELY STICKING POINTS?

A LONGTIME SCHOLAR ON IRAN AND FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT ADVISOR, VALI NASR JOINED ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, VALI.

YOU CALLED THE STOCK FROM OF THE WEEKEND AS GOOD AS IT COULD POSSIBLY GET.

CAN YOU ASK PLANE WHY?

>> BOTH SIDES WENT TO THESE TALKS, IN ORDER TO ASCERTAIN THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY A PATHWAY TO A NEGOTIATION, BUT I THINK THEY CAME BACK BELIEVING THAT THERE IS PATHWAY TO IN NEGOTIATIONS.

THAT IS WHY THERE IS A SECOND ROUND SCHEDULED FOR THE COMING WEEKEND, AND EVEN THE RESIDENT'S REMARKS THAT YOU JUST BROADCAST, YES, HE DOES PUT PRESSURE ON IRAN, BUT HE ALSO SHOWS THAT HE IS NOT COMMITTED TO THIS PROCESS.

HE BELIEVES IT IS GOING WELL, HE JUST WANT TO GO FASTER, AND AGAIN, HE IS REITERATING THAT HE WANTS THESE TALKS TO SUCCEED, BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO CONTEMPLATE, AND I RAN SHOULD NOT WANT EITHER.

>> AND DESPITE HEARING HARSH CONDEMNATION OF THE JCP OA , AND TRUMP'S CAMPAIGNING OVER THE YEARS SINCE, THAT ANY DEAL WOULD REQUIRE IRAN, COMPLETELY DOING AWAY WITH ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAMS, AS WELL AS ITS MISSILE PROGRAMS AND FUNDING OF ITS PROXIES?

IT APPEARS NOW, AT LEAST FROM EARLY REPORTING, THAT BOTH SIDES, OR THE U.S. SIDE, SEEMS CONTENT JUST DOING AWAY WITH BUILDING A BOMB, CAPABILITIES OF BUILDING A NUCLEAR BOMB.

HOW DOES THAT ULTIMATELY DIFFER FROM THE ORIGINAL DEAL, THEN, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP CALLED THE WORST DEAL IN THE WORLD?

AS SORT OF A MAXIMUM SET OF ASKS ON IRAN, IS REALLY NOT REALISTIC.

YOU ARE BASICALLY ASKING A COUNTRY TO GIVE UP ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING IT HAS, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS HE GOING TO GET IN RETURN TO JUSTIFY THAT?

HE'S UGLY, IT IS A RECIPE FOR GOING TO WAR RIGHT AWAY.

SO, IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE INCREDIBLE DIPLOMATIC ENGAGEMENT, YOU HAVE TO BASICALLY AGREED TO OPTIMIZE IN THE MIDDLE.

SO, IRAN WOULD BE FAR AWAY FROM WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING, AND IRANIAN EXCHANGE WILL GET SANCTIONS TO JUSTIFY THAT.

AT THIS?

2015 INTERNATIONAL DEAL, BUT PERHAPS, THE TERMS MIGHT BE DIFFERENT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP COULD CLAIM VICTORY IF HE SAYS, WELL, CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DEAL, CERTAIN TERMS ARE ABUNDANTLY DIFFERENT, OR ARE MORE STRINGENT THAN THEY WERE IN 2015, BUT IN THE END, ANY DIPLOMATIC DEAL IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE A VERSION OF THE 2015 DEAL .

>> SO, IN THAT SENSE, IT MAY LOOK VERY SIMILAR, BUT WE KNOW A LOT HAS CHANGED IN THE INTERIM.

IRAN HAS BECOME MUCH CLOSER TO DEVELOPING A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

ENOUGH TO WEAPONS GRADE QUALITY TO MAKE SIX BOMBS.

IT HAS BEEN REPORTED.

EVEN IF THERE IS A DEAL, HOW MUCH OVERSIGHT CAN THERE BE AT THIS POINT TO MAKE SURE THAT IRAN DOESN'T CROSS THAT THRESHOLD SINCE THEY HAVE COME SO MUCH CLOSER?

>> IRAN DEFINITELY HAS GAME, KNOW-HOW, AND KNOWLEDGE, AND YOU CANNOT FORGET THAT, BUT IN TERMS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FOR A DEAL IS EXACTLY TO THIS END.WITH IRAN AGREED TO ENRICHED BELOW, LET'S SAY, 5% OR EVEN LOWER THAT WAS IN THE ORIGINAL TEAM, WITH IRAN GAVE UP FULLY ENRICHED URANIUM THAT IT HAD AMASSED OVER THE PAST FOUR OR FIVE YEARS, WOULD IT BE DISASSEMBLED ALL HIS CASCADES OR CENTRIFUGES THAT IT HAS, AND WOULD AGREE TO INTRUSIVE INSPECTIONS BY THE INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY THAT WOULD PROVIDE GUARANTEES THAT IT IS ACTUALLY NOT EXPERIMENT IN IN ENRICHING?

ONCE IRANIAN PRINCIPLE, WITH TERMS THAT THE UNITED STATES WANTS THAT WOULD ENSURE THAT IRAN IS NOT CLOSE TO A NUCLEAR WEAPON OR SUFFICIENT FUEL FOR NUCLEAR WEAPON, THEN THE QUESTION WOULD BECOME HOW DOES THE UNITED STATES GUARANTEE THAT, AND THAT IS WHERE THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS ON THE NEGOTIATIONS.

>> YOU SAID SOMETHING OVER THE WEEKEND, THOUGH, THAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION.

THAT MAY BE THAT TRUMP , AND AS WE KNOW FROM PREVIOUS DEALS, IT IS ALL ABOUT THE HEADLINES, AND MAYBE NOT SO MUCH ABOUT THE DETAILS , AND HE CAMPAIGNED ON, HE BEGAN THIS ADMINISTRATION BY SAYING, HE WOULD END THE WAR IN UKRAINE QUICKLY.

HE SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO END THE WAR IN GAZA QUICKLY.

THAT HASN'T WORKED OUT.

NOW, HE SEEMS FOCUSED ON, I CAN GIVE MYSELF A DEAL HERE.

AT WHAT POINT DOES IT, CROSS THAT, PERHAPS, THE UNITED STATES MAY BE TOO EAGER TO RUSH TO A DEAL THAT MAY NOT ACTUALLY RESULT THE WAY THE PRESIDENT WOULD LIKE TO?

>> WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL THE I THINK THIS IS DIFFERENT IS IRAN IS MORE EAGER TO HAVE A DEAL THAT, SAY, ISRAEL IS OUR HAMAS ARE, OR UKRAINE AND RUSSIA ARE.

I MEAN, IN THOSE CASES , THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY HAVE TO MAKE A DEAL WERE NOT REALLY READY FOR A DEAL.

THAT IS WHY THOSE CEASE-FIRES HAVE ALL BEEN A PART I THINK I RAN HAS BEEN WEAKENED RECENTLY, IRAN DOESN'T WANT MORE, AND IRAN DOES NEED ECONOMIC LEADS.

IF IRAN BELIEVE THAT TRUMP IS WILLING TO CUT A DEAL, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS WILLING TO LIFT SANCTIONS, I THINK THERE IS SUFFICIENT INCENTIVE ON PART OF IRAN TO ARRIVE AT A DEAL.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY AGREE ON THE TERMS THINGS CAN FALL APART ON THE DETAILS, BUT I THINK, AT THIS MOMENT, BOTH SIDES WANT TO CAME AWAY BELIEVING THAT BOTH SIDES ARE INTERESTED IN THE PROCESS, ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING TO A DEAL.

THAT MAKES THIS, I THINK, MORE PROMISING THAN THE OTHER TO CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENTS THAT YOU MENTIONED.

>> WHAT DOES IRAN HAVE NOW?

WHAT ARE THEY CAPABLE OF TODAY?

>> IRAN IS WEAKENED IN THE REGION, BUT IRAN HAS A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MISSILE CAPABILITIES STILL, AND IRAN HAS A VERY VAST NUCLEAR PROGRAM THAT, YES, IT CAN BE BOMBED, BUT CANNOT BE DESTROYED FROM THE AIR, AND IT CAN BE REBUILT.

SO, JUST BOMBING IRAN FACILITIES DOES NOT DO AWAY WITH NUCLEAR PROGRAMS.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE I RAN IS LEVERAGING.

THE UNITED STATES CAN START A WAR WITH IRAN, BUT IT WILL NOT GET TO FINISH IT, IT WILL NOT HAVE A SAY AS TO HOW IRAN WOULD REACT OR WHETHER IRAN WOULD GO NUCLEAR OR NOT.

THEREFORE, I THINK IRANIANS UNDERSTAND THAT WAR IS NOT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE, BUT IS ALSO AMERICA'S ADVANTAGE EITHER.

THEY HAVE ENOUGH NUCLEAR CAPABILITY RIGHT NOW TO HOLD AMERICA AND ISRAEL'S ATTENTION.

THAT IS WHAT IS BRINGING THE UNITED STATES TO THE DIPLOMATIC TABLE.

>> WE KNOW THE PRIME MINISTER KNOW WHO SAID THAT HE WANTS IRAN TO NO LONGER BE ABLE TO ENRICH URANIUM AT ALL, ESSENTIALLY DOING AWAY WITH ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAM, NOT JUST A CIVILIAN PROGRAM, AS IRAN NOW CLAIMS THAT IT HAS AND IS FOCUSED ON.

WHAT ROLE DOES ISRAEL PLAY HERE ?

I KNOW THAT RON DERMER MET WITH STEVE WYCOFF SHORTLY --OR SPOKE WITH STEVE WYCOFF -- SHORTLY AFTER THESE MEETINGS IN IRAN.

WHAT ADDED PRESSURE IS ISRAEL PUTTING ON THE UNITED STATES HERE TO DO MORE THAN JUST FOR THE HEADLINES THAT ARE COMING OUT OF THESE TALKS ?

>> I THINK ISRAEL'S PREFERENCE WAS ACTUALLY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS NOT NEGOTIATE AT ALL AND WOULD ACTUALLY PROCEED TO BOMBING IRAN'S NUCLEAR SITES.

ISRAEL'S ARGUMENT WAS THAT ISRAEL HAD TAKEN OUT IRAN'S MISSILE DEFENSE, THAT IT'S VARIOUS NUCLEAR SITES WERE VULNERABLE, AND UNITED STATES SHOULD JUST FINISH THEM OFF AND NOT OFFER THEM NOTHING.

THEN, PLAN B WAS ASKED THE IRAN DISMANTLE ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAMMING IN ITS ENTIRETY.

IT WAS VERY OBVIOUS , FROM THE MEETING PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD WITH PRIME MINISTER AND YAHOO IN WASHINGTON, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID NOT WANT TO BOMB IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM RIGHT NOW, NOR DID HE WANT TO ASK SOMETHING TO THE TABLE THAT WOULD BE A NONSTARTER, MAINLY, YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW.

I THINK IRANIANS GOT ASSURANCES FROM STEVE WOULD COUGH THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT INTERESTED IN, RIGHT NOW, IN DISMANTLEMENT OF THE ENTIRETY OF IRAN'S PROGRAM, BUT TO NEGOTIATE IRAN AWAY FROM BEING ON THE THRESHOLD OF HAVING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

THAT IS THE SAME THING WHICH IRANIANS BELIEVE THEY CAN NEGOTIATE.

I THINK ISRAEL, FOR NOW, IS NOT GETTING ITS WAY WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> YEAH.

TRUMP MAY BE USING ISRAEL, THERE IS SOME SPECULATION, IF THIS DEAL DOESN'T GO ACCORDING TO GO AFTER THEIR FACILITIES AND PROGRAM ON THEIR OWN, THAT TRUMP COULD VIEW THAT AS LEVERAGE FOR IRAN ACTUALLY SIGNING A DEAL NOW AS WELL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME, VALI NASR.

APPRECIATE YOU BREAKING THIS DOWN FOR US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS WELCOMED EL SALVADOR'S LEADER TO THE WHITE HOUSE, CEMENTING AN ALLIANCE WITH NAYIB BUKELE AND HAS BEEN AT THE CENTER OF HIS IMMIGRATION POLICY.

THIS WEEKEND, 10 MORE ALLEGED GANG MEMBERS WERE DEPORTED TO A COUNTRY, BUT SPEAKING TODAY, PRESIDENT BUKELE SAYS THAT HE DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO RETURN A MAN WHO WAS MISTAKENLY DEPORTED TO EL SALVADOR'S HIGH SECURITY MEGA PRISON LAST MONTH.

>> HOW CAN I RETURN TO THE UNITED STATES?

WHAT DO I DO?

IT IS LIKE , THE QUESTION, HOW CAN I SMUGGLE A TERRORIST TO THE UNITED STATES?

HAVE A POWER OF ATTORNEY FOR THE UNITED STATES?

>> THIS COMES AFTER THE SUPREME ADMINISTRATION MUST FACILITATE HIS RETURN.

CORRESPONDENT DAVID KOHLBERG HAS SEEN INSIDE THE NOTORIOUS PRISON HIMSELF AND JOINS ME NOW FROM WEST PALM BEACH IN FLORIDA.

DAVID, I COULD GO ON.

I SPOKE WITH YOU NOT LONG AGO ABOUT WHAT WE SAW TRANSPIRE IN THE OVAL OFFICE ARE CLEARLY, THESE ARE TO MEN THAT ARE VERY FOND OF EACH OTHER, PRESIDENT BUKELE, VERY TALENTED IN SPEAKING.

HE SPEAKS TRUMP'S LANGUAGE, KNOWS HOW TO APPEAL TO HIM.

THEY HAVE A FONDNESS THAT ALSO EXTENDS TO THEIR VIEW ON IMMIGRATION, AND ON DETENTION OF DEPORTEES HERE .

WALK US THROUGH WHAT HAPPENED IN THE OVAL OFFICE AND WHAT PRESIDENT BUKELE SAID WHEN HE WAS ASKED BY CAITLIN COLLINS WHETHER A MAN THAT IS DETAINED IN EL SALVADOR RIGHT NOW , GARCIA, THAT HAS LED TO A MYRIAD OF COURT CHALLENGES OF GOING UP TO THE SUPREME COURT, WHAT HE SAID WHEN CAITLIN SAID WHETHER HE WOULD REPATRIATE HIM BACK TO THE U.S.?

>> I THINK WHAT IS SURPRISING, PRESIDENT BUKELE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP BOTH ALLUDED TO SOMETHING WE WOULD NEVER EXPECT TO HEAR FROM THEM, AND THAT IS THAT THEY ARE POWERLESS CERTAINLY, PRESIDENT BUKELE WENT ON TO SAY, HE SMUGGLED SOMEBODY BACK INTO THE U.S. WHO WAS NOT A U.S. CITIZEN, BUT RATHER, A SALVADORAN.

OF COURSE, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THAT FIRST, PRESIDENT BUKELE OF EL SALVADOR, DETERMINE WHAT HAPPENS WITH GARCIA.

THIS IS A LOT OF BACK AND FORTH.

IN THERE THINKING, WELL, THEY ARE BOTH BASICALLY SAYING THAT THEY DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO DO THAT WITH OUT THE OTHER.

THEY ARE IN THE SAME ROOM AND WORKING TOGETHER.

YET, IT SEEMS, ULTIMATELY, TO THINGS ARE AT PLAY.

ONE, THE U.S.

SIMPLY DOES NOT WANT HIM TO RETURN FOR ANY SORT OF ISCI THAT MIGHT CREATE OR, TO --PERHAPS THERE IS SOMETHING TO THIS --THE LEGAL TEAM OF GARCIA PUSHED BACK FIRMLY, BUT EL SALVADOR HAS EVIDENCE ON HIM.

THE REASON I SAY THAT, TO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS , LAST WEEK, WHEN I WAS IN EL SALVADOR, TOLD ME THAT THEY HAVE INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE THAT FURTHER IS AGAINST GARCIA.

I ASKED TO SEE THAT AND HE SAID, THEY COULDN'T PROVIDE IT.

THEY WENT ON TO SAY, WHEN THE OFFICIALS, THAT HE WILL NEVER RETURN TO THE U.S., NOT GOING ANYWHERE WITH THAT PERSON'S EXACT QUOTE.

THE LEGAL TEAM FOR GARCIA ARE NOT BUYING THAT, SAYING, IT IS LIES FROM EL SALVADOR CORROBORATED BY THE UNITED STATES.

TIANA, IT GIVES YOU THE STANDS FOR EL SALVADOR STANDING FIRMLY NOW TO NOT WANTING TO GIVE UP ABREGO GARCIA.

>> WE HEARD FROM PAM BONDI IN THE OVAL OFFICE MEETING AS WELL STATE THAT, YES, THIS MAY HAVE BEEN A PROCEDURAL ERROR ON THE PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION , BUT NONETHELESS, THEY SAY THAT ABREGO GARCIA WAS IN OUR COUNTRY, THE UNITED STATES, ILLEGALLY, AND THAT HE WAS, INDEED, A MEMBER OF MS-13, THE NOTORIOUS VIOLENT GANG, EVEN THOUGH THEY OFFERED, AGAIN, NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP EVEN WENT A BIT FURTHER WHEN ASKED WHETHER OR U.S. CITIZENS.

WE KNOW 10 MORE HAD BEEN SENT, NOT NATURALIZED CITIZENS, BUT 10 MORE MIGRANTS THAT HAD BEEN IN U.S. PRISON HAD BEEN SENT TO EL SALVADOR OVER THE WEEKEND, AND HE SAID THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF IT IS LEGAL -- SAYING, WE WILL DO WITH THE COURTS TELL US TO THAT HASN'T EXACTLY BEEN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN TRANSPIRE AT THIS POINT, BUT THAT HE WOULD BE OPEN TO SENDING NATURALIZED CITIZENS TO EL SALVADOR.

WHAT IS THE REACTION TO THAT?

>> IN GENERAL, NOT JUST THE U.S., BUT YOU ARE RIGHT, THIS HAS BEEN PASSED IN THE PAST MONTH OR SO.

YOU FIRST MENTIONED THIS AND AS YOU DID OUT, WILL THE COURTS ALLOW IT, THEN THEY WOULD PUT I GUESS THE REALLY BAD GUYS INTO THIS LIKE PRISON.

IT IS INTERESTING, OF COURSE, TRYING TO NAVIGATE THE LEGALITY OF THAT.

TRIED TO FIGURE OUT HOW EXACTLY THEY CAN MAKE THAT HAPPEN FROM DO KNOW IS THAT THEY ARE, IN EL SALVADOR, TRYING TO PLAN FOR ADDED CAPACITIES, AND WHEN I FIRST VISITED LATE LAST YEAR, I WAS TOLD BY THE PRISON DIRECTOR AT CECOT, ANYWHERE FROM 10 TO 20,000 INMATES.

WOULDN'T GIVE ME AN EXACT NUMBER BECAUSE OF THE VARIOUS REASONS HE COULDN'T RELAY THAT.

WHEN I VISITED LAST WEEK, DAYS AGO, HE SAID, THEY ARE NEARING THEIR 40,000-PERSON CAPACITY, WHICH SUGGESTS THEY HAVE TAKEN A HUGE INFLUX.

HE SAID, THAT MAY BE ACCOMMODATIONS , OF WHICH THERE ARE A COUPLE HUNDRED OR SO, BUT ALSO, INCREASED ARRESTS WITHIN EL SALVADOR OF FOLKS THAT THEY DEEM TO BE GANG MEMBERS, AND THEY'RE BRINGING THEM INTO CECOT.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE CAPACITY FOR MORE DEPORTEES AND POTENTIALLY, AS YOU SAID, U.S. CITIZENS?

THAT IS SOMETHING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION MOVES FORWARD WITH .

I WAS TOLD LAST WEEK, THEY ARE CONSIDERING A SECOND CECOT, LOOKING EVEN WITHIN CECOT'S PROPERTY TO SEE IF THEY CAN EXPAND AND ADD MORE PEOPLE THERE.

IT IS INTERESTING, YOU LOOK INSIDE ONE OF THESE JUMBO CELLS, TIANA, WHEN I WAS THERE LAST YEAR, ABOUT 80 PEOPLE OR SO IN EACH CELL.

IT IS GROUNDED IN THAT SPACE.

WHEN I WENT TO THERE SEVERAL DAYS AGO, THERE WERE 100 PEOPLE.

THEY HAVE SEEN AN INCREASE AND HAVE SOLD THE IDEA THAT THEY HAVE HAD TO RESHUFFLE, EIGHT AIRPORT HANGAR LIKE BUILDINGS TO ACCOMMODATE MORE PEOPLE COMING IN.

>> YOUR REPORTING FROM CECOT THERE HAS BEEN SO IMPORTANT AND EYE-OPENING FOR OUR VIEWERS TO GET A SENSE OF WHAT THIS IS AND ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE.

WE SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT PRESIDENT BUKELE IS EXTREMELY POPULAR IN EL SALVADOR.

AS WE HEARD HIM SAYING IN THE OVAL OFFICE MEETING, HE SAID, ONCE THE MURDER CAPITAL OF THE WORLD IS NOW THE SAFEST CITY IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE .

SO, HE'S GETTING A LOT OF CREDIT AT HOME FOR SOME OF HIS POLICIES.

OF COURSE, THE LEGALITY OF THESE POLICIES, BOTH THERE AND NOW EVEN HERE, IN THE UNITED STATES, OR WHAT IS BEING SCRUTINIZED.

DAVID CULVER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

.

>>> WE TURN NEXT TO PENNSYLVANIA, WHERE A MAN IS FACING ARSON , DENTED MURDER, AND TERRORISM CHARGES FOR BREAKING INTO GOVERNOR JOSH SHAPIRO'S RESIDENCE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND STARTING A FIRE, FORCING HIM, HIS FAMILY AND GUESTS TO PHILLY JUST HOURS AFTER THEY HAD CELEBRATED THE JEWISH HOLIDAY OF PASSOVER.

NO ONE WAS INJURED, BUT AS YOU CAN SEE, THE FIRE CAUSED SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE TO PART OF THE BUILDING.

TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT GOVERNOR SHAPIRO SAID OUTSIDE OF HIS HOME.

>> IF HE WAS TRYING TO TERRORIZE OUR FAMILY, OUR FRIENDS , THE JEWISH COMMUNITY TO JOIN US FOR A PASSOVER SEDER IN THAT ROOM LAST NIGHT, HEAR ME ON THIS.

WE CELEBRATED OUR FAITH LAST NIGHT PROUDLY , AND IN A FEW HOURS, WE WILL CELEBRATE OUR SECOND SEDER OF PASSOVER AGAIN PROUDLY.

NO ONE WILL DETER ME OR MY FAMILY FROM CELEBRATING THEIR FAITH OPENLY AND PROUDLY, OR ANY PENNSYLVANIAN.

>> STRONG WORDS THERE BY THE GOVERNOR.

NOW, WE TURN TO U.S. COLLEGE CAMPUSES, WHERE STUDENT ACTIVISTS ARE FACING INCREASED SCRUTINY AS PART OF A CRACKDOWN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SAYS IS AIMED AT ELIMINATING ANTI- SEMITISM.

>>> ONE OF THE MOST HIGH- PROFILE CASES IN AN IMMIGRATION JUDGE THAT RULED THAT A COLOMBIAN GRADUATE CAN BE DEPORTED FROM THE U.S. AFTER THE WHITE HOUSE A LEGIT HE BROKE FOREIGN-POLICY LAWS.

THE WORKING LAW ANTI-SEMITISM USED BY MULTIPLE UNIVERSITIES WORLDWIDE.

NOW WORRIED THAT THE DEFINITION HE CREATED IS BEING USED THE COST ON TO EVERYONE, HE JOINED MICHELLE MARTIN TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS INCLUDES JEWISH STUDENTS.

>> KENNETH STERN, THANK YOU SO AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME AGAIN.

>> JUST TO REMIND PEOPLE, YOU ARE THE LEAD DRAFTER OF THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE FOR --OR IHRA, WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

TO REMIND PEOPLE, WHAT WAS THE IDEA BEHIND DRAFTING THIS DOCUMENT, AND WHAT DOES THIS WORKING DEFINITION SAY?

>> IT WAS ACTUALLY DRAFTED IN 2004.

THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE ADDED IN 2016, BUT DRAFTED AT THE TIME WHEN THERE WAS THE SECOND INTIFADA, AN UPTICK ON ATTACK S ON JEWISH PEOPLE IN EUROPE, AND REPORTED THAT AND HAS ADMITTED THEM , BUT THEY SAID, LOOK, WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT DATA POINTS, AND NO COMMENTS OR SCORE SHEETS OF WHAT THEY SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, WE NEED A COMMON DEFINITION, THEN THEY SAID THAT AUNT HAS, DOESN'T THAT THEY VIEW HIS STEREOTYPES ABOUT JEWS, BUT IN A PROBLEM, TOO, THAT BASICALLY SAID, LOOK, WE DO IF JEWS ATTACK A FOREIGN ISRAELI AND THEY SAID, WE HAVE --IF THE PERSON IS BEING ATTACKED , OR THE PERSON HAS THESE STEREOTYPES ABOUT JEWS APPLIES TO ISRAELIS, APPLIES TO THE PERSON ON THE STREETS OF LONDON OR FRANCE, THAT IS ANTI- SEMITISM , NOT IF THEY ARE UPSET AT ISRAELI POLICY.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS SORT OF NUTS, AND WE WORKED WITH THE DIRECTOR OF EU OR THE LEAD DIRECTOR, BUT IT WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO SAY THAT YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT VIOLATES THE DEFINITION OR WOULD CLASSIFY YOU AS AN ANTI-SEMITE, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM OF HOW IT IS BEING USED AS A WAY TO STOP SPEECH, AS OPPOSED TO JUST TAKE THE TEMPERATURE AND GET THE CLARITY ON WHAT IS A CRIME AND WHAT ISN'T.

>> IN FACT, WE SPOKE ABOUT A YEAR AGO.

YOUR CONCERN THEN WITH THAT MAINSTREAM JEWISH GROUPS WERE PUTTING MORE AND MORE PRESSURE ON LAWMAKERS TO ADOPT THE DEFINITION FROM THE IHRA AS WELL AND WORRIED THAT IT WOULD BE SUPPRESSING FREE SPEECH.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NOW?

>> SURE.

PREDATES THE CURRENT MOMENT , STARTED WRITING ABOUT THIS IN 2010, 2011, AND I WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THIS IN 2020.

SO, IT IS NOT NEW , BUT WHAT I SEE IS , YOU KNOW, USING IT AS A WAY TO SUGGEST WHAT FUNDING GOES TO PROGRAMS, WHAT STUDENTS SHOULD COME TO CAMPUS.

WHAT WORRIES ME MORE ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO HAS SPENT DECADES DEALING WITH HATE AND ANTI- SEMITISM IS IT IS GETTING A EASY SOLUTION TO A LOOK AT A PROBLEM.

TAKE THIS DEFINITION , PUT SOMETHING ON ONE SIDE OF A LEDGE OR ANOTHER, AND THAT IS HOW WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT ANTI- SEMITISM .

WHEN WE ARE AT A MOMENT WHERE I'M REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE LEVELS OF THE ANTI- SEMITISM WHEN WE ARE TARGETING PEOPLE THAT ARE SEEN AS NOT PART OF OUR SOCIAL CONTRACT, WHETHER IT IS IMMIGRANTS, OR MUSLIMS, OR TRANSGENDER FOLKS , BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT HOW ANTI- SEMITISM WORKS, THAT IS THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH PEOPLE FEAR SOMEBODY IS AMONG US AND LEADERS CAN MAKE THAT A PROBLEM.

THE OTHER THING THAT TROUBLES ME TOO --THIS IS USED TO CHANGE ADMINISTRATIONS, AND I SEE THE WHOLESALE ATTACK ON HIGHER EDUCATION , AMONG LEGAL PROFESSIONALS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF ALL OF THIS.

I LOOK BACK AT JEWISH HISTORY.

AT TIMES WHERE DEMOCRACY WAS UNDER THREAT, TIMES OF THE McCARTHY ERA, JEWISH SECURITY WAS THE MOST AT RISK , AND I'M WORRIED OF REENTERING ONE OF THOSE PERIODS NOW .

>> YOU KNOW, WE CAN DEBATE ABOUT THE DEGREE TO WHICH SOME OF THESE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT TOOK LACE, MAINLY LAST SPRING, YOU KNOW, HOW APPROPRIATE THEY WERE, BUT SOME PEOPLE WOULD JUST SAY, LOOK, SOME OF THESE DEMONSTRATIONS REALLY WERE ANTI- SOMATIC.

THINGS WERE SAID THAT CREATED JEWISH STUDENTS IN PARTICULAR, JEWISH PEOPLE WHO HAPPEN TO BE IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

SO, SOME PEOPLE MIGHT LOOK AT THAT AND SAY, WELL, WHY WOULDN'T YOU EMPLOY A DEFINITION AS A KIND OF A YARDSTICK FOR BEHAVIOR THAT YOU'D TO BE TOLERATED AND BEHAVIOR THAT IS NOT?

>> THE FUNDAMENTAL DISTINCTION THAT IS BEING LOST HERE, WHICH IS NO STUDENT SHOULD BE HARASSED, INTIMIDATED, BULLIED, THREATENED, LET ALONE ASSAULTED.

STUDENTS ON A CAMPUS WHERE A CAMPUS CAN WORK WELL, STUDENTS HAVE TO EXPECT THEY WILL HEAR THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO DISTURB THEM TO THEIR CORE, AND UNIVERSITIES HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY OF HOW DO WE TEACH OUR THIS MOMENT AND SUPPORT STUDENTS AND SO FORTH, NOT TO SAY THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT GOING TO BE HEARD.

A PART OF THE PROBLEM ON THE CAMPUS AT THE MOMENT, FROM THE LEFT, THE IDEAS ABOUT, YOU HAVE TO BE SAFE INTELLECTUALLY.

THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, MICRO AGGRESSIONS, NOBODY SHOULD GO AND HARM SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, INTENTIONALLY, AND SO FORTH, AND BE AWARE OF WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, BUT THE IDEA THAT, SOMEHOW, WE ARE GOING TO MONITOR SPEECH MEANS THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS CERTAIN IDEAS THAT ARE OKAY, CERTAIN IDEAS THAT ARE NOT OKAY, GOING TO PRIORITIZE WHAT WE THINK, AND THAT UNDERCUTS A CAMPUS EDUCATION.

ONE OF THE OTHER CHALLENGES HERE, TOO, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE FORGETTING THAT THERE ARE JEWISH STUDENTS ON BOTH SIDES, AND JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE WAS THE GROUP THAT WENT TO THE TRUMP TOWER.

SO, YOU KNOW, INSIDE THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, TOO, ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE JEWISH AND WHETHER YOU HAVE AN ATTITUDE ON ISRAEL.

I AM A ZIONIST.

ISRAEL IS IMPORTANT FOR ME.

FOR A LOT OF YOUNG JEWISH STUDENTS, THE IDEA IS THAT THEY LEAD TO AN ANTI-ZIONIST POSITION.

THE CASE IS REALLY INSTRUCTIVE FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN GERMANY WITH THE DEFINITION USED TO BASICALLY CLASSIFY JEWS WHO WERE OPPOSING THE WAR IN GAZA, CALLING THEM ANTI-SOMATIC.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT A PERSON COMMENTED ON IT SAID, ISN'T IT IRONIC THAT GERMANY IN AGAIN DECIDING WHAT IT MEANS TO BE JEWISH, WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE A JEWISH POSITION , AND I DON'T WANT CONGRESS DECIDING THAT HERE EITHER.

I DON'T WANT ADMINISTRATIONS DECIDING THAT.

I WANT THEM TO BE ABLE TO GET STUDENTS TO BE ENGAGED ABOUT AVERAGES ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

IT IS A GREAT TOPIC TO TALK ABOUT HOW DO WE DEAL WITH DIFFERENCES.

IF WE LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF UNIVERSITIES WE TRY TO SAY, CERTAIN SPEECH MAKES PEOPLE COMFORTABLE, AND WE'RE GOING TO OUTLAW THAT SPEECH, IT IS GOING TO BACKFIRE, AND HARM THE PEOPLE OF HIS TRY TO PROTECT.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS INVESTIGATED DOZENS OF UNIVERSITIES , INCLUDING COLUMBIA, PENN , AND BROWN FOR USE OF DEI INITIATIVES AND WHAT THEY CLAIM IS THEIR FAILURE TO PROTECT JEWISH STUDENTS, FACULTY, AND STAFF FROM ANTI-SEMITISM ON CAMPUS OR THEIR FAILURE TO ALLEGEDLY CONFRONT ANTI- SEMITISM ON CAMPUS.

VERY CLEAR.

EITHER COMPLY WITH VERY SPECIFIC DIRECTIONS , IN SOME CASES, PUTTING WHOLE DEPARTMENTS UNDER OUR LOSE HUGE AMOUNTS OF FUNDING.

THE END FROZE OVER $1 BILLION IN FEDERAL FUNDING TO CORNELL, NEARLY $800 MILLION FOR NORTHWESTERN, COLUMBIA , $400 MILLION IN FUNDING LOST.

THE IRONY BEING THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF STUDENT RESEARCHERS AND FACULTY ON MANY OF THESE CAMPUSES, SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT, DO YOU THINK IT IS REALLY ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM, OR WHAT YOU THINK IT IS ABOUT?

>> I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY MUCH LARGER AGENDA THAT WE HAVE SEEN ACTUALLY, FROM BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, A VIEW OF ATTACKING LIBERAL EDUCATION , AND SEEING IT AS THE ENEMY.

J.D.

VANCE TALKED ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT, I THINK BASICALLY SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD FOLLOW THE UNIVERSITIES --I SEE IT AS A BROADER ATTACK.

ONE OF THE THINGS I TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO ON --ANOTHER BACK IN SEPTEMBER --BACK IN SEPTEMBER, I THINK MOST OF US, EVEN REPUBLICAN -- IF OUR COLLECTION IS CORRECT -- ALL AGREED THAT ONE OF THE CHALLENGES OF THE MOMENT IS THE OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS IS UNDERFUNDED, BACKLOGGED, CASE IS ABOUT AND HAS ADMITTED THEM.

WE ALL THOUGHT THAT MORE FUNDING NEEDED TO GO TO THAT TO RESOLVE THOSE CASES, BECAUSE WHEN THEY ARE NOT RESULT, IT TELLS PEOPLE, PEOPLE DON'T CARE, AND SOME CASES, YOU KNOW, OUR EDIBLE WHEN YOU GO THROUGH THIS SYSTEM.

YOU KNOW, NOW THEY'RE GOING TO CLAW BACK WITHOUT DUE PROCESS, AND WHAT I REALLY WORRY ABOUT , THE LARGER MOMENT, THAT WE ARE IN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS FROM UNIVERSITIES.

I GET IT, THAT UNIVERSITIES HAVE TOUGH DECISIONS TO MAKE .

THERE ARE A LOT OF PRESSURE AND POLITICAL PRESSURE AND FINANCIAL PRESSURE .

THIS MAY NOT BE THE ONLY THING THAT HAS COME DOWN THAT IS GOING TO THREATEN, YOU KNOW, BUT I THINK ABOUT BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

YOU KNOW, IF WE DON'T HANG TOGETHER, WE ARE GOING TO HANG SEPARATELY.

COLUMBIA HAS A 14 TO $15 BILLION ENDOWMENT, HARVARD HAS A BIG ENDOWMENT.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT LARRY SUMMERS, BUT HE IS RIGHT IN SAYING, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR ENDOWMENT FOR?

TO FIGHT THINGS LIKE THIS.

I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ORGANIZED PUSH-BACK, AND TO FOCUS ON HIGHER EDUCATION, WHICH CAN AFFECT JEWISH STUDENTS TOO, AS YOU SAY, AND NOT JUST SAY, OH, WE WILL BE HAPPY THAT WE ARE DEPORTING SOMEBODY OR THREATENING FUNDING FOR SOMEBODY THAT'S SAYS SOMETHING WE DON'T LIKE.

>> TO A VERY HIGH PROFILE CASES WITH GRADUATE STUDENTS IN BOTH CASES WHO WERE ARRESTED SUMMARILY.

THE SURPRISE --MAHMOUD KHALIL, FORMER COLUMBIA STUDENT -- HOLDS A GREEN CARD, LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT, MARRIED TO AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, WHO IS PREGNANT, AND THEN, THE OTHER CASE, A TOUGH GRADUATE STUDENT TO A RAMADAN BREAK FAST DINNER WITH FRIENDS AND WAS SORT OF DETAINED ON THE STREETS.

SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS NOTHING, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

IT WAS HIGH FILE FOR THE CASE OF KHALIL, HE WAS A PERSON TRYING TO ARTICULATE WHAT THE STUDENTS' CONCERNS WERE.

IN THE CASE OF THE YOUNG WOMAN RUMEY OZTURK, THE TOUGH GRADUATE STUDENT, SEEMED LIKE SHE HAD AUTHORED AN OP-ED CRITICIZING THE WAR IN GAZA FOR ISRAEL.

SEEMS LIKE THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY OTHER EVIDENCE PRESENTED, THE REASON SHE WAS PICKED UP WAS THAT THIS OP-ED --AND THE ARGUMENT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T INVITE YOU HERE TO TEAR UP OUR CAMPUSES, WE INVITE YOU TO STUDY.IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE SO, SAY MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THAT OCCURRED.

>> IN KHALIL'S CASE, HE IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T WEAR A MASK, OBVIOUSLY, WAS VERY PUBLIC , BUT THEY CHARGED HIM WITH NO CRIME.

ONE OF THE CONCERNS EVEN MORE, EVEN AS YOU TALK ABOUT THE OP- ED SIGNED BY THE TUFTS STUDENT.

I SAW THE STUDENT JOURNALISM MORNING PEOPLE WERE WRITING THINGS TO GO BACK AND SCRUB OUT IDENTITIES, PEOPLE THAT BROUGHT ABOUT , YOU KNOW, TO TALK ABOUT USING ANONYMOUS SOURCES.

THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ALSO PRODUCE AN ARCHIVE FOR PEOPLE, GO BACK IF THEY SAY THERE IS A DANGER NOW.

COLUMBIA, --THE JOURNALISM SCHOOL, PROFESSORS SAID, PERFECTLY REASONABLY, YOU KNOW, A HORRIBLE THING TO SAY, DON'T WRITE ABOUT GAZA, DON'T WRITE ABOUT UKRAINE, YOU CAN'T BE PROTECTED.

WHAT WORRIES ME ABOUT ALL THIS, TOO, ONE OF THE THINGS I HAVE DONE IN TEACHING , IS THAT I HAVE MENTORED STUDENTS , AND HAD TAUGHT STUDENTS WHO ARE FOREIGN STUDENTS WHO COME HERE, AND 1 THE REASONS THAT THEY COME HERE TO STUDY HIS OUR TRADITION FOR FREE SPEECH.

MORE THAN ONE HAVE TOLD ME THAT, I REALLY WANT TO LEARN ABOUT YOUR FREE-SPEECH TRADITION SO I CAN GO BACK TO MY COUNTRY, WHERE WE DON'T HAVE THAT PROTECTION, AND TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO THINK ABOUT THE VALUE OF THE MARKETPLACE THAT IS OPEN FOR IDEAS TO DEBATE ABOUT THEM AND NOT HAVE THE STATE SUPPRESS IT.

BUT WE ARE ACTING MUCH MORE LIKE THOSE COUNTRIES, LIKE RUSSIA , AND IRAN AT THE MOMENT, AND WE ARE ACTING LIKE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT I THINK WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE AND ARE HOPING TO GET BACK TO.

>> WHICH IS INTERESTING, SOME OF THE GROUPS THAT HAVE BEEN SORT OF AT THE TIP OF THIS -- AT LEAST THEY CLAIM THEY ARE -- ARE THESE GROUPS LIKE CANARY MISSION AND BENTARA, WHO WOULD COMPILE DOSSIERS ON STUDENTS WHO HAVE PARTICIPATED IN DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST ISRAEL'S CONDUCT IN GAZA, AND THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR SOME TIME.

THEY ARE NOT ACTING AT THE BEHEST OF THESE GROUPS, BUT THEY SAY THEY ARE.

THEY SAY THAT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE BEEN IDENTIFYING THESE STUDENTS, GIVING THEIR INFORMATION TO THE ADMINISTRATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT THEIR POINT OF VIEW IS BROADLY SUPPORTED, AND IF NOT, WHY DO THEY CONTINUE TO ACT WITH IMPUNITY?

WHAT THEY CLAIM, THAT THEY ARE ACTING AT THE BEHEST OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY AT LARGE.

>> CANARY MISSION HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME.

I THOUGHT ABOUT IT IN MY BOOK.

IT FIRST STARTED SAYING, OKAY, YOU'RE GOING TO IDENTIFY THESE FOLKS, WE DON'T LIKE THEIR POSITIONS, YOU KNOW, AND YOU SHOULDN'T HIRE THEM WHEN THEIR ANTI-ISRAEL, ANTI-SOMATIC, ANTI- AMERICAN .

WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT SO EVERYBODY KNOWS WE SHOULDN'T HIRE THEM .

THAT WAS AWFUL ENOUGH.

NOW THAT THEY ARE BASICALLY TURNING PEOPLE IN, TAKING CREDIT FOR IT, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT JEWISH HISTORY, DECIDING, OH, THERE ARE ENEMIES AMONGST US, AND WE ARE GOING TO FIND PEOPLE AND TURN THEM IN.

BOGGLING.

DON'T LIKE HOW PEOPLE SPEAK?

YOU FIND WAYS TO COUNTER THAT SPEECH.

COME UP WITH BETTER ARGUMENTS.

THE REALITY IS THAT CANARY MISSION WAS, YOU KNOW, GOT SOME SIGNIFICANT FUNDING, THEN I THINK THE JEWISH COMMUNITY , FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO, WAS SORT OF EMBARRASSED BY THEM, BUT THERE WAS A RECENT STORY THAT THEY ARE GETTING MORE FUNDING.

THAT LED TO FOLKS SAYING, WE ARE DEFENDING THE JEWISH PEOPLE BY GETTING AN 18-YEAR-OLD OR 20- YEAR-OLD AND HAS A LONG POSITION, AND ABOUT THE WRONG --SAID SOMETHING I FIND DISGUSTING --THAT IS GOING TO TELL JEWISH STUDENTS ON CAMPUS, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT ADULTS DON'T THINK THAT THEY CAN ARGUE THEIR CASES.

I THINK THE BETTER THING TO DO IS TO HELP PEOPLE YOU AGREE WITH ALL YOU DID A CASES AND CREATE ENVIRONMENTS FOR HAVING SIGNIFICANT DISCUSSIONS AND DIFFERENCES OF OPINION , AND IMAGINATION.

YOU KNOW, AS WE TALKED ABOUT THE LAST TIME I WAS ON, THE LAST IDEA I HAD WAS THAT IF YOU CAN THINK OF HUMAN BEINGS AS PEOPLE FIRST , HAVE EMOTIONAL EMPATHY, INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY, FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT PERSON HAS A DEEPLY DIFFERENT VISION THAN YOU ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ISRAEL , AND ENGAGE WITH THEM, FIND WAYS, YOU KNOW, TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

THAT IS WHAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING ON CAMPUSES, NOT TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO DEPORT PEOPLE THAT HAVE VIEWS WE DON'T LIKE.

>> IS THE CONCERN HERE THAT THIS REALLY HAS BECOME ABOUT SPEECH AND NOT CONDUCT?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, LISTEN, SOMEBODY SAID, I ASSAULTED SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, THAT IS A DIFFERENT THING.

IF SOMEBODY SAYS, YOU KNOW, I FUND RAISE FOR HEZBOLLAH, HAMAS, EVEN HAVE A BAKE SALE, THAT WAS SOMETHING ELSE.

BUT THEN MONETARY SUPPORT FOR TERRORISM --THE ADMINISTRATION IS CLEAR THIS IS ABOUT SPEECH.

AGAIN, YOUR WON ABOUT WHAT I TESTIFIED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I AM SORT OF BLOWN AWAY BY THE IDEA THAT SOMEBODY SAYING SOMETHING THAT I FIND TOTALLY DISAGREEABLE IS SOMEHOW A THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN POLICY.

ARE WE THAT WEAK AS A COUNTRY THAT WE CAN'T TOLERATE KIDS ON CAMPUS SAYING SOMETHING?

AGAIN, IT IS DIFFERENT THAN HARASSING, INTIMIDATING, BULLYING, THREATENING, ALL THOSE THINGS, BUT TO SAY SOMETHING, WHICH IS THE PREMISE OF THEM APPARENTLY, A LOT OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE LEGISLATION , YOU KNOW, THAT WE HAVE PROMOTED, TO ME, THAT IS VERY SCARY.

>> FOR I LET YOU GO, HOW ARE YOU DOING?

AS A PERSON WHO HAS BEEN EXPRESSING CONCERNS LIKE THIS FOR SOME TIME NOW, HOW ARE YOU?

>> I AM CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE UNIVERSITY, THIS FULL-SCALE ASSAULT ON HIGHER EDUCATION, THE CLAW- BACKS, THE THREATS, THE BULLYING , AS YOU TALKED ABOUT, THE RECEIVERSHIP .

THERE WAS AN ARTICLE ABOUT MAYBE HAVING A CONSENT DECREE WITH COLUMBIA WITH A JUDGE ENFORCING WHATEVER BECOMES YOU ARE HANDING OVER THE UNIVERSITY POLITICIANS .

THAT DEEPLY WORRIES ME, YOU KNOW , BECAUSE THE HIGHER EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS BEST ABOUT AMERICA.

WE PRODUCE STUDENTS THAT CAN THINK , THAT HAVE SPACES WHERE THEY CAN BE WRONG AND WHERE THEY CAN BE CRITICAL THINKERS.

WHAT WE ARE DOING IS EXACTLY, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN ON SOME OF THE OTHER SIDE , THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE FROM TIME TO TIME, SAYING, THERE IS ONLY ONE RIGHT WAY OF DOING THIS, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE THE STATE DOING IT, AND THREATENING SIGNIFICANT FINANCIAL PENALTIES , THAT CAN SCARE US ALL.

>> PROFESSOR KENNETH STERN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> FINALLY, REMEMBERING A TITAN OF LATIN AMERICAN LITERATURE.

PERUVIAN AUTHOR MARIO VARGAS- YOSEF HAS DIED AT AGE 89.

BEST KNOWN FOR NOVELS INCLUDING " CONVERSATION IN THE CATHEDRAL," AND "THE TIME OF THE HERO," HIS DEPICTIONS OF TYRANNY AND THE STRUGGLE FOR LIBERTY EARNED HIM THE NOBEL PRIZE IN LITERATURE IN 2010.

VARGAS-YOSEF WAS THE LAST OF LATIN AMERICAN'S LITERARY BOOM GENERATION AND HELPED SHINE A GLOBAL SPOTLIGHT ON THE CONTINENT ALONGSIDE WRITERS LIKE GABRIEL GARCIA-MARK ASPER VARGAS-YOSEF SPOKE TO CHRISTIAN YOUNT IN 2022 ABOUT WHERE HIS PASSION FOR WRITING BEGAN.

>> YOU WERE KIND OF A MODERN- DAY CYRANO DE BERGERAC, WRITING LOVE LETTERS FOR YOUR STUDENT COLLEAGUES.

HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

>> WELL, IT WAS A WAY OF USING LITERATURE TO SEDUCE PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW?

I HAD THIS IMPRESSION THAT MY LETTERS WERE ABLE TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO BECAME FRIENDS OF MINE.

IT WAS A WAY TO GET ACQUAINTED WITH THE WARDS, WITH THE LANGUAGE, WITH THE SPANISH -- PROBABLY, IT WAS JUST A RADICAL EXERCISE .

YOU KNOW?

BE IN TOUCH WITH PEOPLE, THROUGH LANGUAGE .

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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